Teamovitch #1

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Chew Terr
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Chew Terr »

Sorry, finally back from vacation. Hopefully a bit of rest and downtime will improve my quality of play.
White internal chat:
Obviously, there are three options here: split, escape, or tenuki. I tend to play a slightly thin style (heh, slightly) out of a desire to play fast, all over the board. However, I like to think that it's important to consider every option.

As has been suggested we should not split unless we can offer a severe attack. Similarly, we need not defend unless black similarly has a severe attack.

Long story short, I agree with Red. The value of 'a' is that it is a double threat. Not only does it offer a threat against the lone stone, it lets us pressure the larger group, forcing it to run. However, we cannot do that unless we are safe. If we are weak, black will simply lean on us to get out. Thus, 'b', to threaten to separate in good form. As far as the severity of an attack on our stones goes: I think we cannot be killed as it stands. However, black would gain thickness from attacking, which we certainly don't want. If we can make a threat sente enough or valuable enough to be worth that thickness. I think that we should agree to recommend the existing suggestions 'a', 'b', and add a tenuki suggestion, such as C6, E17, or... something. If you guys want to suggest 'a' and 'b', I would appreciate advice on the best tenuki. 'a' and 'b' are both strong moves, so I think they should be suggested, regardless. As I cannot find another comparable local alternative, the third option need not be local.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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topazg
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

To observers:

Actually, I want a different move to red's proposals:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 - Move 28 - 0 prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . . . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X 1 O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This keeps White's stones completely connected, Black's stones completely disconnected, and lets us really do some damage on the bottom edge if Black ignores. If Black responds, we get to keep chasing that big group.

I consider either of the following options complete failures because Black connects. And the descent allows Black to wedge and has miai of cuts after he connects (not something he'll play just yet, but it means White has to already be aware of a ladder and ladder breakers that he'd rather not be worrying about):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 - Move 28 - 0 prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 1 . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 - Move 28 - 0 prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . a O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . . 3 2 4 X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X b O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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topazg
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

At observers again:

Maybe aiming at this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 - Move 28 - 0 prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 7 . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 5 . 6 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 2 . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X 1 O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Magicwand »

to observers only:
below diag is suggested by topazg but i am not comfortable with it.
reason being ..1 and 2 exchange is very very bad trade.
if it will capture the group then it is ok but...black is perfectly safe.
and in my opinion white didnt get enough out of that bad trade.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 - Move 28 - 0 prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 7 . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 5 . 6 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 2 . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X 1 O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

**Bump**
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Redundant »

**Set**
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Jordus »

**Spike**
I'm thinking...
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Chew Terr
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Chew Terr »

My suggestions:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . W . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, I'll go out on a limb and suggest a tenuki for mine.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by tj86430 »

To all: I'm sorry, I'm on vacation right now, and the connection is terrible. I will be back on the 17th, and then I can concentrate on this fully.

WIC:

I can't see Chew's diagram (don't know why), but I get that he suggested tenuki. I will suggest K7.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Redundant »

Suggestion:
To give topaz the full range of options, I suggest the descent.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 Move 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To the team:
Actually, I was hoping for L3, forcing Black to extend to prevent K4, fixing our cuts, and preventing Black from connecting underneath, all in sente. That way, we can carry on chasing them, although I'm concerned they can settle too easy in the corner. My concern with this move is the wedge at M4 and subsequent L5 cut. Please can we invest a few brain cells on what to do if this happens and the ladder doesn't work for us?

@TJ, I want to play around there, but the only purpose is to pressure Black. If Black connects underneath at the point we just played, the move becomes meaningless.

@Chew, Local is too urgent. It's a nice tenuki as far as they go though ;)

@Red, Local is good, and the move serves all our main needs. Definitely happy with this one.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Black suggestions?
I want K5, of course.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Jedo »

black suggestion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 Move 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Pretty straightforward, just want to keep the pressure up on white. Not too worried about our k line stone for now. Maybe this
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 Move 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 3 2 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Jordus »

Black Internal Chat:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . f . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . b e X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . c . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . a . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O d . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


ok.. what to do what to do...

Moves (a) and (d) are focused on creating a base for our group, however, I feel like we can get away with making a move elsewhere before worrying about that group since it has a basic base and can still run out from the top.

Moves (b) and (e) run and attack at the same time... Again it focuses on our group though...

Move (c) attacks whites group while helping to build a wall. This move forces white to run I think, which focuses attention back to our black group I was thinking about protecting... .

Move (f)... we could play elsewhere like (f), but (c) looks bigger than any other move I can think of...
I'm thinking...
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by fwiffo »

Black suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . a . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Jedo took the turn, which was my first choice. The idea behind jumping here is to continue to attack white's group while building up the lower left area of the board. I think our corner group is still safe enough that we don't have to worry about trying to play a move like a or b yet.
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