Weirdly aggressive 11k

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nagano
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Re: Weirdly aggressive 11k

Post by nagano »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
This chops white apart:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Yes, but white has countermeasures, and should be able to get sente.

topazg wrote:I would only consider this here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 19x19 diagram
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . , . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Corner is Black's. Influence is Black's. Hane in the corner is gote for White. Black has no peeps to fear.

If in doubt, play honte :D

In this case, I agree it is probably a bit better.
"Those who calculate greatly will win; those who calculate only a little will lose, but what of those who don't make any calculations at all!? This is why everything must be calculated, in order to foresee victory and defeat."-The Art of War
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Magicwand
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Re: Weirdly aggressive 11k

Post by Magicwand »

nagano wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
This chops white apart:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Yes, but white has countermeasures, and should be able to get sente.

what countermeasures? how does he get sente?
below is the only logical sequence i see and it is not sente
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 6 . 2 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


if you are talking about below sente the it is terrorable for white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 6 . 2 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Re: Weirdly aggressive 11k

Post by nagano »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 5 9 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , 0 . . . . , . . . 2 1 X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I responded rather hastefully. I was thinking of something like this, but I agree it should be significantly better for Black. At any rate, I indicated that white should not have played that way in the first place, so by "compensation" I meant relative to the mistake made.
"Those who calculate greatly will win; those who calculate only a little will lose, but what of those who don't make any calculations at all!? This is why everything must be calculated, in order to foresee victory and defeat."-The Art of War
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Magicwand
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Re: Weirdly aggressive 11k

Post by Magicwand »

nagano wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 5 9 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , 0 . . . . , . . . 2 1 X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I responded rather hastefully. I was thinking of something like this, but I agree it should be significantly better for Black.


that is pretty good variation i didnt think of.
but...you missed one move on your variaton.

before connecting black will push.
now white can not tenuki.
very very different from your variation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 1 X 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 7 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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The greater the unknown"
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Re: Weirdly aggressive 11k

Post by nagano »

Interesting... I actually thought about that, but was uncertain if it was better to push first or not. What is the rationale of pushing first rather than waiting? It seems to decrease Black's options, as well as his ability to access the center.
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Re: Weirdly aggressive 11k

Post by Magicwand »

nagano wrote:Interesting... I actually thought about that, but was uncertain if it was better to push first or not. What is the rationale of pushing first rather than waiting? It seems to decrease Black's options, as well as his ability to access the center.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 1 X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O a 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


on your variation there is no guarantee that white will answer 'a' so there is a chance white might play that point.
but if you push before connection it is impossible not to answer.
you are restricting white's option of tenuki or other answer by finalizing the shape.

on my variation below cutting point at 'a' is deadly so white must answer.
and still weak point on 'b' so black can extend to c
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 1 X 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 7 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 8 b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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The greater the unknown"
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Re: Weirdly aggressive 11k

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Now vee may perhaps to begin. Yes?

Move 15: You have a very dangerous cutting point at R5 which you should protect. R7 or R8 is probably best.
K4 does not hurt him nearly as much as a cut at R5 would hurt you.

23: What is the real target here? I'd hane at the other end of two stones with L2.
J5 just forces his cutting stone to become stonger...

25:...and now you have to protect both J5 and L5/L6.

31: The atari at K7 is better. When he defends his stone, then you play J7, and the ladder going northwest works for you. Then you are connected.

39+41: Terribly optimistic.

85: I like SolarBear's plan here: L12 + M12.

139: Nice move!

143: G14

151: Hit the vital point at H18.

163: D8
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Re: Weirdly aggressive 11k

Post by Monadology »

I certainly wasn't expecting the attachment to be the focal point of responses in this thread, much less for people to be so interested in the appropriate response. Just goes to show how much I know.

Thanks to everyone for your input.
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