Trick play: 3-5 low approach, 3-2 invasion. Thoughts?

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:09 pm

Bill Spight wrote:Is there a diagram called 正解图 ? Or one with text including the first two characters, or maybe just the first? That's likely to be the solution diagram.

There are nine diagrams, the last of which (given below) is labeled:

图9 吴：我认为正解如本图

which contains the character sequence you gave.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W diagram 9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There is then some more text, which presumable explains the letters in the diagram. From what I can make out, it explains that Black will play double hane if white plays at A (the sequence A-B-5-C is given in the text)

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:56 pm

HermanHiddema wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Is there a diagram called 正解图 ? Or one with text including the first two characters, or maybe just the first? That's likely to be the solution diagram.

There are nine diagrams, the last of which (given below) is labeled:

图9 吴：我认为正解如本图

which contains the character sequence you gave.

$$W diagram 9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W diagram 9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There is then some more text, which presumable explains the letters in the diagram. From what I can make out, it explains that Black will play double hane if white plays at A (the sequence A-B-5-C is given in the text)

My trusty computer translator says, "Wu: I think the normal solution like this chart."

keysersoze · Post by **keysersoze** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:41 am

So Go Seigen says the correct answer doesnt involve cutting those stones apart? :clap:

Anyway it seems like the kind of book i will never lay my hands upon. Any other REALLY peculiar joseki positions like this one? Care to post one or two?

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:56 am

keysersoze wrote:So Go Seigen says the correct answer doesnt involve cutting those stones apart?

Seems that way, yes

Anyway it seems like the kind of book i will never lay my hands upon. Any other REALLY peculiar joseki positions like this one? Care to post one or two?

The book is in three parts. Given my lack of Chinese skills, I have to guess a bit, but I would surmise it's something like:

1. Interesting/new/strange joseki moves
2. Openings
3. Middle game tesuji

The move I gave is from part one, and was totally unfamiliar to me. Another one, which I did already know, is this trick move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . O . . . $$ | . . . X . . 1 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Then, there are several moves may be unusual or (somewhat) new. E.g:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . O . 1 . $$ | . . . X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . 2 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Next black move at a or b $$ +------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . . . . 6 . . . . $$ | . . 1 . 4 3 . . . $$ | . . . b 5 . . . . $$ | . . . . a . . . . $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 5 like this instead of at a $$ +------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . $$ | . . X , O . a . . $$ | . . . . . 2 3 5 . $$ | . . . . . . 4 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

None of these, I think, are really new to western players, though they may well be to many of our forum visitors

Anyway, I hope to work through this book together with my Chinese friend, so that I can do more than look at the pretty diagrams :lol:

I'll keep L19 posted on any interesting finds

unkx80 · Post by **unkx80** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:08 pm

HermanHiddema wrote:图9 吴：我认为正解如本图

"Diagram 9 - Go: I believe the correct sequence is as shown in this diagram."

Rough translation:
图9 - Diagram 9
吴 - Wu, or Go Seigen's surname
我 - I
认为 - think, believe
正解 - solution
如 - as
本图 - this diagram

The accompanying commentary would be more interesting though.

keysersoze · Post by **keysersoze** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:46 am

it would be very interesting to know what Go Seigen says about the first variation you showed where white cuts and gets a small corner and black gets good shape on the outside))

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:39 am

@unkx80: The rest of the commentary for diagram 9 reads:

大体上如此，若说还有其他变化图，也可考虑白5接着于A压, 黑B，白5，黑C。

@keysersoze:

The commentary and diagram for the first variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W diagram 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . Y 3 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O 2 . 6 . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . 9 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

图2 对黑

，白如1位应，黑2是要注意的好手。走成这样黑坏不了。把黑 :bt:

子和白3除掉再看看，是黑稍好的两分，而这一交换黑谈不上损。若这样思考，白3就应该下4位了。这也是此外要研究的如题。

And I have no idea what any of that means

unkx80 · Post by **unkx80** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:22 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W diagram 9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

吴：我认为正解如本图。大体上如此，若说还有其他变化图，也可考虑白5接着于A压, 黑B，白5，黑C。

Go: I believe the correct sequence is as shown in this diagram. This is an expected result, if we consider other variations, we may also consider W5 pressing at a, Bb, W5, Bc.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W diagram 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . Y 3 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O 2 . 6 . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . 9 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

对黑

，白如1位应，黑2是要注意的好手。走成这样黑坏不了。把黑 :bt:

子和白3除掉再看看，是黑稍好的两分，而这一交换黑谈不上损。若这样思考，白3就应该下4位了。这也是此外要研究的[问]题。
[ed: changed the second to last character; the original looks like a typo]

Against :bt:

, if white answers at W1, then B2 is a good move to take note. This result cannot be bad for black. [ed: tewari follows] Taking off :bt:

and W3, we see that this is a roughly equal position but with a slight advantage for black, and this exchange [of :bt:

and W3] cannot be said to be a loss for black. If we think this way, then W3 should be played at B4. This is also a problem that should be explored.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:10 am

HermanHiddema wrote:
...大体上如此，若说还有其他变化图，也可考虑白5接着于A压, 黑B，白5，黑C....图2 对黑，白如1位应，黑2是要注意的好手。走成这样黑坏不了。把黑子和白3除掉再看看，是黑稍好的两分，而这一交换黑谈不上损。若这样思考，白3就应该下4位了。这也是此外要研究的如题。

And I have no idea what any of that means

In that case, how many hours did it take you to type it?

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:39 am

hyperpape wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
And I have no idea what any of that means

In that case, how many hours did it take you to type it?

I actually had my girlfriend type it for me. She's learning Mandarin and can read some 1500 characters now. Her Mandarin is not quite good enough to provide a reliable translation, but she can type things like that relatively quickly. There were some 6 or 7 characters total in that post that she didn't know and had to look up.

Life In 19x19

Trick play: 3-5 low approach, 3-2 invasion. Thoughts?

Re: Trick play: 3-5 low approach, 3-2 invasion. Thoughts?

Re: Trick play: 3-5 low approach, 3-2 invasion. Thoughts?

Re: Trick play: 3-5 low approach, 3-2 invasion. Thoughts?

Re: Trick play: 3-5 low approach, 3-2 invasion. Thoughts?

Re: Trick play: 3-5 low approach, 3-2 invasion. Thoughts?

Re: Trick play: 3-5 low approach, 3-2 invasion. Thoughts?

Re: Trick play: 3-5 low approach, 3-2 invasion. Thoughts?

Re: Trick play: 3-5 low approach, 3-2 invasion. Thoughts?

Re: Trick play: 3-5 low approach, 3-2 invasion. Thoughts?

Re: Trick play: 3-5 low approach, 3-2 invasion. Thoughts?