Entry Grade

[tapir]

I suppose my situation was an unnecessary distraction from the main thread, and for that I apologise. I think my point is really your last one Tapir, the rating system as it stands has led to a number of formalised policies that seem to be damaging to Go as a whole, such as the situation in the UK and Poland (and elsewhere), and I think it is making tournaments a much less enjoyable place to play your Go. It's certainly causing unpleasantries over here (this thread started by such an example), even though the person in question is unlikely to be phased by the issue.

In short, I agree with you 100% that this rule/rating pedantry (ok, science is less pejorative ) is harming the promotion of the game.

Addendum: Apologies for ranting on a bit. I suppose I've become a bit of an evangelist on this one these days as I see it doing what I perceive to be so much harm.

I don't think the term science applies, really.

Yes, there is science behind the design of rating systems, but that does not mean the current policies in individual countries are science based.

In the Netherlands, there was a proposal to regulate kyu ranks through the EGF ratings (dan ranks are already regulated differently). We then had someone with a PhD in mathematics actually research whether it was a good idea, and his conclusion was that self-chosen kyu ranks were far more reliable than EGF ratings.

If you provide a link to that research, I will like your previous post

[HermanHiddema]

If you provide a link to that research, I will like your previous post

It is in the archives for the AGM of the Dutch Go Association, but it is in Dutch:

http://www.gobond.nl/Documenten/Bestuur ... rating.pdf

The bulk is tables showing:

Given a (0,1,2,3,4,5) kyu difference in rank, what are the winning percentages for certain rating differences?

and the reverse:

Given a (50,100,150,...,500) point rating difference (rounded), what are the winning percentages for certain rank differences?

The numbers show very clearly that rank is very much more predictive for results than rating

[tapir]

The numbers show very clearly that rank is very much more predictive for results than rating

Dutch is sufficiently similar to German to extract the main idea. Thank you.

[mumps]

I could write a response about the original posting, which referred to a real case recently. But I'm not sure whether the readers of this thread would actually be interested in the facts, as the thread seems to have moved on.

Please let me know if you are.

Jon Diamond
President
British Go Association

[Javaness]

I'd was interested to know if anyone would do this in the absence of a "national policy on ranks/ratings". I wasn't especially interested in the facts of why it was done.

It occurs to be that it is in fact possible to treat a new player's rank as provisional. Tournament results can be resubmitted to the EGD. If such an occurrence was occasionally demanded, and was adequately explained in the submission comments, I don't see any objection coming from the EGD staff. This would strike me as an improvement on current practice. If a player's initial entry rank was found to be truly misleading after, say, 10 to 15 games, it could be harmlessly corrected. There are several players out there who could have benefited from such an approach.

I could write a response about the original posting, which referred to a real case recently. But I'm not sure whether the readers of this thread would actually be interested in the facts, as the thread seems to have moved on.

Please let me know if you are.

[topazg]

I would be very interested to know the precise facts behind this one Jon.

I would like to know, specifically, why entering as a 2300 GoR player when his performance exceeded 2300 was considered worthy of resetting to 2200.

[mumps]

I wouldn't normally comment in such a specific vein as below, but the original posting and subsequent discussion has been sufficiently detailed to have identified a specific case which was discussed by the BGA Council recently. The facts are:

- the player referred to was known to the EGD rating system, but at a lowish kyu rating due to there being no known games for many years
- in the EGD rating system if the entry grade is two or more grades above the previously entered grade then it does a reset and takes the entered grade as the base point for calculating future ratings, so what the entry grade is makes a significant difference to the exit rating (and other people's ratings)
- the player entered the Maidenhead tournament at an entry grade of 3 dan which the Tournament Director accepted
- the exit rating for this player would have exceeded 2300 only if the entry grade was 3 dan or above
- the BGA Rating Officer noticed this and queried the basis for the entry grade, referring the issue to the BGA Council
- the BGA has a policy statement, at http://www.britgo.org/policy/policies7 relating to rating resets.
This was approved some considerable while ago, to encourage kyu players who are rapidly improving to do so, but to restrict resets at dan levels because of the possible implications for the rating system as a whole
- the maximum dan grade for entry to a tournament for effectively an unknown person in this policy was set to 2 dan (and subject to pre-approval), except for people with grades assigned by foreign Go associations
- the BGA Council considered this issue and has a) submitted this tournament to the EGD using an entry grade of 2 dan and b) written appropriately to the person concerned, who will be entitled to enter his next tournament at 3 dan because of these results

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There is a continuing debate about the EGD rating system and whether it is deflationary or not - further statistical analysis is definitely required.

However, it should be noted that UK grades, as per our published list, are pretty well correlated to the European average (UK 2031.7 v 2039.5 for an average shodan). The EGD rating system uses at its basis a theoretical rating for an average shodan of 2100, which is only achieved by Slovakia and the Czech Republic (who originated the system).

It should also be noted that strengths published in the UK rating list are based on the person's rating and the European average correlations, as described in the FAQ, not on the theoretical basis for the EGD system.

Regards
J Diamond
President, British Go Association

[Li Kao]

- the maximum dan grade for entry to a tournament for effectively an unknown person in this policy was set to 2 dan (and subject to pre-approval), except for people with grades assigned by foreign Go associations

Given that policy the decision was very reasonable.

I still think the math behind GoR should be improved so that the grade used to enter the tournament doesn't affect the rating directly. But of course such a decision must work with the current rating system and policies, and not some hypothetical system I'd like to have.

[topazg]

- the BGA Rating Officer noticed this and queried the basis for the entry grade, referring the issue to the BGA Council
- the BGA has a policy statement, at http://www.britgo.org/policy/policies7 relating to rating resets.
This was approved some considerable while ago, to encourage kyu players who are rapidly improving to do so, but to restrict resets at dan levels because of the possible implications for the rating system as a whole
- the maximum dan grade for entry to a tournament for effectively an unknown person in this policy was set to 2 dan (and subject to pre-approval), except for people with grades assigned by foreign Go associations
- the BGA Council considered this issue and has a) submitted this tournament to the EGD using an entry grade of 2 dan and b) written appropriately to the person concerned, who will be entitled to enter his next tournament at 3 dan because of these results

However, it should be noted that UK grades, as per our published list, are pretty well correlated to the European average (UK 2031.7 v 2039.5 for an average shodan). The EGD rating system uses at its basis a theoretical rating for an average shodan of 2100, which is only achieved by Slovakia and the Czech Republic (who originated the system).

Regards
J Diamond
President, British Go Association

Many thanks Jon, very helpful. Has there been any similar attempts to evaluate with UK 2031 is typically equivalent in playing strength to 2031 from other European countries?

Also, if we have visiting strong players, "the maximum dan grade for entry to a tournament for effectively an unknown person in this policy was set to 2 dan" is kind of worrying - With no-one potentially capable of assessing their strength, could be in principle be forcing Korean 6 dans to enter as 2 dan, even if this is retroactively updated? From what you've said above, there is a precedent set now that effectively prevents other behaviour - the argument of "if they perform at or above their entered grade, we will take no action" sounds particularly appealing to me, but as the Maidenhead 3 dan actually overperformed his 2300 rating and was reset anyway, I presume this is not the case?

PS I was at the council meeting when that policy was formulated. I remember the discussions, and now regret that it has been set in stone in this way. The discussions were to give a way of preventing excessive use of resets to pick up rating points, but it has lead to "by the book" decisions that appear to be lacking in common sense.

[Li Kao]

@topazg
I think the exception for people with graded by foreign go associations applies to your Korean 6d.

- the maximum dan grade for entry to a tournament for effectively an unknown person in this policy was set to 2 dan (and subject to pre-approval), except for people with grades assigned by foreign Go associations

[topazg]

@topazg
I think the exception for people with graded by foreign go associations applies to your Korean 6d.

- the maximum dan grade for entry to a tournament for effectively an unknown person in this policy was set to 2 dan (and subject to pre-approval), except for people with grades assigned by foreign Go associations

Not if he hasn't got an official grade. What about people in this country simply playing on online servers until they hit 4 or 5 dan? Effectively, the policy reads and is implemented as "If we don't know you, you can't enter higher than 2d regardless of how strong you are".

[hyperpape]

the exit rating for this player would have exceeded 2300 only if the entry grade was 3 dan or above

Note that the exit rating would only have exceeded 2200 if the player entered at 2dan or higher. Ditto for 2100 and 1dan, all the way down to 1600. If the player entered at 1500, the exit would be 15xx. Only at 1400 does the exit rating become 1502. (These figures calculated using the GoR calculator at the EGD, assuming a class A tournament, and playing WBW in even games).

If the player had entered with a rank of 4d, his rating would have only declined by 6-7 points.

Even if the player had won all three games, he would have had to have entered at 1800 before these results could gain him a full rank.

The policy may make 3d vs. 2d quite significant, but the statement I quote does not seem to demonstrate much.

[mumps]

- the maximum dan grade for entry to a tournament for effectively an unknown person in this policy was set to 2 dan (and subject to pre-approval), except for people with grades assigned by foreign Go associations

Not if he hasn't got an official grade. What about people in this country simply playing on online servers until they hit 4 or 5 dan? Effectively, the policy reads and is implemented as "If we don't know you, you can't enter higher than 2d regardless of how strong you are".

That's true.

Of course we don't expect Tournament Directors to be impolite when trying to ascertain the entry grade of foreign players, so they may accept what is told them without asking for a certificate.

Our recommendation for entry grades is online - 2.

I know of at least one player who said they had a server grade more than 2 higher than their UK grade. The reality is that server play isn't the same as over the board play, so perhaps the ratings aren't that comparable anyway? The EGD rating system is for over the board play.

When we have an issue with the policy then it will be re-examined.

[topazg]

When we have an issue with the policy then it will be re-examined.

What will trigger the "we have an issue" status?

[mumps]

When we have an issue with the policy then it will be re-examined.

What will trigger the "we have an issue" status?

I don't know; perhaps someone will complain about something or a new player arrives asking to be a 9 dan entry or...?

Someone asking to be entered above 2 dan would probably be treated on the individual merits of the case.

If I knew other likely things that could cause an issue then we'd be able to address them in advance.