96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

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Loons
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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

Post by Loons »

For either player;
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W W 1 b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The two continuations I was considering for black were a and b. Neither of you seem to have considered them- any particular reason why ? (Aiming to exploit the two stones' shortage of liberties)

Oh, my mistakes. Both players looked at exactly this and I somehow missed it.
Last edited by Loons on Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

Post by topazg »

@loons:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W W 1 b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


What next for Black?
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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

Post by Loons »

Well yes, I clearly missed that also :P Not my most observant day.

My instinct is still that b was better than the double-hane though. For more or less Perception's reasons (also worse aji for white)
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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

Post by youngjae »

I just finished cleaning off the collateral blood spatter from lurking too close to the Magicwand vs. Topazg melee, and while I was waiting for my clothes to drip dry so I can again bask in the light of day I thought I would weigh into this game!

Sorry but this is for observers only! To the players though... fight well!
This move in the game was generating a few comments.

While I think that after white extends to 'a' the result is perhaps slightly favorable, especially as black gives up sente when he defends his weakpoint at 'c', I am not sure if this move itself is the root of the problem. Perhaps it is earlier.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X c . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My 2 cents is, that this move in the diagram below was premature. The next white move at 'a' bent black's shape around on itself, which seems a little painful.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I were playing, before taking a big point elsewhere, I would consider playing as below. Now 'a' and a point around 'b' or 'c' are miai for white's development.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Would like to hear other opinions though! :D (I will take Kirby's advise and avoid the 'sarcasm' smiley to avoid confusion).
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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

Post by mw42 »

Here are some thoughts I had about the position on the left.
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]PW[Perception]PB[mw42];B[pd];W[dc];B[qo];W[cq];B[de];W[ce];B[dd];W[cd];B[ec];W[eb]
;B[fc];W[cb];B[df];W[cg];B[fq];W[dg];B[eg];W[eh];B[fh];W[ei]
;B[fg]LB[bf:A][ci:B]C[This position seems interesting because of the aji at A and B. Just to check out a few variations.]
(;W[ci]C[Black is immediately happy if white takes gote to fix it.])
(;W[dn]C[Let's assume white plays the standard 3-3 joseki then tenukis.];B[iq];W[]
;B[ci]C[Black plays at B directly.]
(;W[dj];B[ck];W[cj];B[bj]
(;W[bi];B[bh];W[bk];B[ai];W[bl]
(;B[bg];W[cf]
;B[ch]C[Simple life, but can black do better?])
(;B[cf];W[bg];B[bf];W[ag];B[af];W[dh]
;B[bc]C[If white chooses to play like this, I think he loses the corner.]))
(;W[bk];B[bh];W[aj];B[bi];W[bl];B[cf];W[bg];B[bf]
(;W[ag];B[af];W[dh]
;B[bc]C[Cutting the other way leaves a similar result with white choosing between saving four stones or fighting for the corner.])
(;W[be]
;B[ag]C[Perhaps this is white's best response. I think the result is okay for black, but I probably wouldn't play A13 immediately to take sente.])))
(;W[ck];B[dj];W[fk];B[ej];W[fj];B[cf]
(;W[bf]
;B[dh]TR[cg][dg]SQ[eh][ei]C[White will lose a pair of stones.])
(;W[dh];B[bg];W[bh];B[be];W[ag];B[bf];W[fi]
;B[bc]C[This would also lead to a fight for the corner.]))
(;W[cj]C[Here black would just tenuki and look for an opportunity to use the aji later.])))[/sgf-full]
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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

Post by Mnemonic »

@ mw42
If you get to play you variation starting with (A), what likelihood would you assign to you responses from 1-3

@ Observers
I would have played 3 without thinking, are one and two likely responses?)
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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

Post by mw42 »

@Mnemonic

I don't know, I'd say the attachment is the best response.
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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

Post by topazg »

@youngjae:

I agree with you completely youngjae, that's what I'd have done too :) (the knight move for Black)
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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

Post by Chew Terr »

Perception:
Perception wrote:If he plays the shoulder hit here's what I expect:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Something like that anyway. I think black would tenuki instead of responding directly to 8 because I can't see any local response that's really any good and to play at 8 instead of 7 allowing white to cut wouldn't be any good either.

With the top bottom and right sides all being so wide open still I'd feel okay with this since I would have around 30 solid points including komi.


Would this really have been even? It jsut feels like it gives up WAY too much strength on the right side. Having fallen for exactly this in my game against CSamurai, I'm kind of wary of letting an opponent build framework/influence on so large a scale.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

Post by Perception »

@Chew Terr
I can't say if it would really be even but I wouldn't feel behind. Black has no solid points only influence, his shimari in the lower right in my diagram would be the closest he is to actually making points up to that point. I would just have to keep my opponent from making too much and try to gain some points in the process which I don't think would be too difficult with how open the 3 sides of the board I haven't played on yet are.

Also the only group on the board in that diagram that could be put under pressure from an attack would be the black group in the top left.

I'm not too good at playing against large moyos but I prefer taking solid territory so it's something I'm working on. I've also seen plenty of pro games where a moyo spanning a large section of the board is almost entirely erased. Because of that I may underestimate their value.

I'm not strong enough at this point to give a good answer. Re-reading what I wrote I realize it's a bit disjointed and maybe not very helpful but I guess the first sentence is really the best answer I can give (I can't say if it would really be even but I wouldn't feel behind).
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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

Post by Dusk Eagle »

While I'm not going to dispute that the keima at 'a' is a good shape move, I think there is something to be said for a quick development a la Go Seigen's style. I've been working my way through Kamakura (which I think I mentioned earlier in this thread) and in multiple games Go Seigen would leave a group of stones that Kitani was attacking to play big moves elsewhere and develop quickly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For instance, what about counter-attacking around :b3:? Depending on how things develop along the bottom, you can choose how to handle the top-left. For now, treat the top-left stones as bait that white must try to find a good way to capture. Just my thought.
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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

Post by youngjae »

@topazg
Glad for affirmation! I will be very interested to see what mw42 had in mind though. :D

@Dusk Eagle
Dusk Eagle wrote:While I'm not going to dispute that the keima at 'a' is a good shape move, I think there is something to be said for a quick development a la Go Seigen's style. I've been working my way through Kamakura (which I think I mentioned earlier in this thread) and in multiple games Go Seigen would leave a group of stones that Kitani was attacking to play big moves elsewhere and develop quickly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For instance, what about counter-attacking around :b3:? Depending on how things develop along the bottom, you can choose how to handle the top-left. For now, treat the top-left stones as bait that white must try to find a good way to capture. Just my thought.

I understand your point and I agree it is a possible tactic. In this situation though, is it maybe a little unnecessary? There is a real danger the group at the top could be very heavy and it is not very easy to attack white's corner stone. If white cuts black's approach stones then black will be very busy whereas by comparison white will not have very much to worry about and can focus on taking big points.

True, I am not Go Seigen so I cannot really judge the result, but at the same time, because I am not Go Seigen maybe I would not be confident playing this way :D. Still I have not read through Kamakura and it sounds like it would be worth a read. How similar were the situations to this in which Go Sensei used this type of tactic?
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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

Post by Perception »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not sure if this move is any good or not but oh well. I've been somewhat distracted recently and haven't spent a whole lot of time on Go since my last move. This seems okay to me though, I won't be pressed down low, it builds my moyo on the left up a bit, and it threatens an attack on the black stone on the bottom (I suppose he could treat it lightly since it's just one stone).

Right now I'm considering a play on the bottom and the right to be miai. If black plays on the top I'll think about reducing or invading.

There's not much else to write about for now, I'll try to write more on my next move.
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mw42
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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

Post by mw42 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'll just play the joseki. White won't play another move on the left, that is too slow. He will take sente to move on the right, probably. If he splits, I will enclose the corner. If he approaches, I will attach... it should be interesting.
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Magicwand
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Re: 96: Perception (2k) vs. mw42 (2k)

Post by Magicwand »

for obs only:
every move have to agree with other moves you made prior.
he gaveup points to get influence before so he needs to play as below.
his move doesnt agree with the influence and lower right corner move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . C . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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