Teamovitch #1

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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Again, there is no point in waiting for further suggestions. It is the only move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 2 X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To observers:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now moves like 'a', 'b', and 'c' start to look interesting.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Chew Terr
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 2 X . 4 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't resist this. It may be aji-keshi ko threat wasting, but it seems quite sente and makes it so that black won't be able to get an eye here in the future. Additionally, none of the blocking moves seem to help black too much, now that 37 is in place.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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jts
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by jts »

This is a stage of the game that I find highly unintuitive. I would have gone for the upper left corner a while ago. But all the players seem to know that the center groups must grow and grow...

This thought was occasioned by Joaz's comment about a-b-c, but on a second reading I think he's saying "L10 activates a, b & c," not "We must continue to play on this side of the board." But I still wonder how both teams can be so confident that the local situation is still urgent.
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tj86430
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by tj86430 »

WIC/Suggestion:

Some thoughts:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . e . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . a X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X d . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . c . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a - pushing from behind, which I don't like,
b - jumping ahead, but if black turns and then cuts will lead to a complicated fight
c - looks good, and works together with C9. Builds a framework to the left while slightly reduces blacks possibilities there
d - taking Chew's idea further. How will black respond?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X 5 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X 3 4 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X 1 2 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


e - good old tenuki

In addition there are possible plays in the bottom/bottom right, but I'm not sure there are urgent.

I really don't know what's best, so I nominate this because it pleases my esthetical eye:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . W . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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topazg
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

Observers:

Please can someone pick D17 or E16, I don't really like E17 and we really need to play in that corner :(
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Chew Terr
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Chew Terr »

tj86430 wrote:WIC/Suggestion:

Some thoughts:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . e . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . a X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X d . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . c . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a - pushing from behind, which I don't like,
b - jumping ahead, but if black turns and then cuts will lead to a complicated fight
c - looks good, and works together with C9. Builds a framework to the left while slightly reduces blacks possibilities there
d - taking Chew's idea further. How will black respond?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X 5 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X 3 4 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X 1 2 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


e - good old tenuki

In addition there are possible plays in the bottom/bottom right, but I'm not sure there are urgent.

I really don't know what's best, so I nominate this because it pleases my esthetical eye:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . W . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Oh right, I forgot that d kind of just works. I think I read something like that at one point, but I could just be imagining remembering. The existence of this means that my move would be big aji-keshi. If it's not too late, I'd like to change my suggestion to that, for options. It may still be better to scoop the corner first, but I'm not sure the best single move to do that with.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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topazg
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

Obs:

I was hoping I could use chew's move as aji-keshi but forced, to give another round of choices. If he really changes it to a cut, I really don't want to play it :(

Use the force Red!
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Redundant »

How about we push one more time. Black gains little by extending again, and the hane seems much too thin. It also settles our group more, maybe even enough to play in the upper left.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . W X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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topazg
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 8 X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Team:
Yeah, I'll take this. I wasn't sure if we needed it or not, and I'm worried the hane isn't severe enough now. We cannot let Black take tenuki first. Soon find out!


Obs:
Hoping for good top left corner options
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fwiffo
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by fwiffo »

Black internal:
Allowing the hane here is not acceptable (indeed, white could double-hane, which would be horribly painful). But continuing to extend feels timid, because white is building up influence, and we're mostly running along dame unless we can activate our trap card right side stone. It would be nice if we could jump ahead instead of extending timidly, but it might get complicated.
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Jordus
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Jordus »

Black Internal Chat:
some quick thoughts....
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . y . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . y . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . z . . x x x . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . z . . x b x . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . x x x . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . c O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . d . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I am not too afraid of the hane... though it would put us on the run with that group, it still has enough potential in the bottom corner to live. I am thinking extend at (a)..

However I have kind of an itch to play in the middle of their influence (b) or surrounding area... We play in their influence we have potential to attack at 4 different areas, and we will be destroying potential moyo... not to mention whatever group we start in there should be able to live without a hitch... could also attack around y or z before or after playing the b area... and remember we still have the peep at (d) to help create a wall into their area of influence...

we could still play at (c) to attach the group persay too...
I'm thinking...
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Jordus
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Jordus »

Black internal chat:
Another quick idea.. not sure I like it.. but no time to think..:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm thinking...
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Jedo
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Jedo »

black suggestion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think it's time to grab this exchange. I really can't see this being ignored, because then we get to capture the lone stones and do some damage to whites area. I see this as a free, profitable exchange, and I don't think it's aji keshi at this point because white will most likely just descend.
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by gaius »

@ topazg:
topazg wrote:We cannot let Black take tenuki first.
Uuhm, I'm not playing in this game, but here you're basically telling your teammates "please play in the upper left"! Are you sure this is in the spirit of the format?
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

gaius wrote:@ topazg:
topazg wrote:We cannot let Black take tenuki first.
Uuhm, I'm not playing in this game, but here you're basically telling your teammates "please play in the upper left"! Are you sure this is in the spirit of the format?


I have no idea, it's a fine line. I figure a hint drop that we have _somewhere_ urgent is the right side of the line - saying "Guys, I want to play in the top left next, please post suggestions up there" wouldn't be. I'd hoped I was far enough away from the grey area, but maybe not?
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