Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

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shapenaji
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by shapenaji »

Thought I'd add a little more here, this is their most dangerous variation, and I may need to reach in and help:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 122 W55 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . 4 X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . a O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X 3 5 |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O 2 |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X 1 |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X b . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And now we can't play "a", we must play "b"

If we play "a", the following happens:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 122 W55 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . W O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X X X |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O 1 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 2 . 4 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O 3 |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And we get a ko where they take first, on the other hand if we play on the other side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 122 W55 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 4 1 O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X 2 O O X X X |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 3 O O 5 X . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X W . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And we take first, with the excellent follow-up capacity of killing black on top.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Our next two moves must be S15 and O18. Order does not matter. So...

I approve.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by shapenaji »

Approved.
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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Gresil
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Gresil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 123 W55 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O B |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So you've got an eye?
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Approved.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Violence »

Rejected.
Called it...


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 123 W59 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X B |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Gresil »

Whoa, talk about a blind spot.
So you've got an eye?
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Wow a lot of my moves have been changed lately, I think I'm out of shape or something.

After like 15 minutes of making this post I can't see how this move is any better. We can win the race with either move, so... ?

The 4-5 exchange doesn't gain white any liberties, it's still white's turn and black is a liberty ahead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 123 W59 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X 5 . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 3 O O 4 X O O 1 |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I also considered white going at (N17 or O17 or O18) to get more liberties, and in all three cases this move doesn't seem to make a difference.

Also, white next at P15 is forcing for either move. So what am I missing? :scratch:

(And as far as I can tell either (EDIT after more reading: neither) move allows us to kill the right side white stones.)
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 124 W59 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O W |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This move still makes those others gote. It should accomplish what the last move tried to, in addition to forcing
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Yeah, and that's another way to show that the two moves are the same with regard to liberties.

Argh, this is driving me nuts.

Why did Violence change that move? I can't figure out how it could be 4 points better.

(btw I think this white move is pointless, but I don't expect it to be changed since it seems harmless also)
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

I agree completely with Terr's reasoning, and therefore approve.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Violence »

One of those situations where I really hate being right about my teammates...

Last thing I want is for them to feel lost, but I don't think there's any other way out of this situation.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

I would kill to know what's in Violence's hide tags...
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by lorill »

@Daniel
You might want to kill too after reading it :batman:
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by shapenaji »

Approved.
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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