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Offline dangomango
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #21 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:43 pm 
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oh, yes was traveling on plane
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #22 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:13 pm 
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Offline Phelan
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #23 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:01 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 4... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-10/8 W-10/8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let's see what they play now.

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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #24 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:03 am 
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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #25 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:26 am 
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #26 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:24 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 4... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-10/7 W-10/8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As planned. I'm pretty sure there's no hope of approaching either corner in sente, and if there are specific approaches that work as probes, I have no idea what they are. --- I'm glad Phelan played another 4-4. I'm not sure if this makes sense, but I tend to think that since 3-4's are extra valuable to approach, White wants an even number of them, so that there isn't a temperature drop after :b5: . (That said, after this the wedge around R10 is quite big, and if W plays it we'll probably end in sente, so we would have gotten that approach anyway.)

I don't have a great understanding of why the orthodox fuseki works. I just like looking at it. If White goes with sanrensei and we finish our framework, I'm not really sure I could explain why our position is supposed to be worth more. So I'm more or less hoping Phelan plays the wedge.
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Offline dangomango
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #27 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:33 am 
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some thoughts
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 4... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-10/7 W-10/8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

this is possible

some variations to this
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 4... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-10/7 W-10/8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 4... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-10/7 W-10/8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . 6 . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 4... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-10/7 W-10/8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




now white's next move will mostly be approaches at these 2 points(a or b) to split blacks formation
and c is possible but not commonly seen compared to a or b
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 4... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-10/7 W-10/8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


our position is worth more than sanrensei because bottem right shimari exerts both influence and territory
compared to 1 4-4 stone it mostly exerts influence
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #28 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:51 am 
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Obs.
I really don't want to. But changes cost a lot in this game, and I can't afford to lose so many right now. I'd much rather play the mini-chinese than orthodox- but it's just a style thing, so it can slide - and hopefully Phelan won't know to split the side, and Marcus or Violence will have to step in. Hmm, maybe I can work a trap into this..
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Offline dangomango
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #29 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:07 am 
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Shaddy wrote:
Approved.

Obs.
I really don't want to. But changes cost a lot in this game, and I can't afford to lose so many right now. I'd much rather play the mini-chinese than orthodox- but it's just a style thing, so it can slide - and hopefully Phelan won't know to split the side, and Marcus or Violence will have to step in. Hmm, maybe I can work a trap into this..


yeah i prefer the mini chinese too (especially with dual 3-4 mini chinese) mainly because it often leads to fights to blacks advantage but orthodox is fine just less fights if both sides avoid complicated variations
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #30 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:17 am 
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Wait are little brothers allowed to read big brother's hidden comments in this one? O.O

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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #31 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:05 am 
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They are not, as far as I know: dango, please do not read my hide tags in the future. I haven't put anything actually useful in there yet, but that'll definitely happen later.
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Offline dangomango
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #32 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:16 am 
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ok my bad lol
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Offline dangomango
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #33 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:22 am 
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with that said, since i didn't know beforehand

jts you can feel free to read my hidden posts
earlier post was somewhat for you
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #34 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:54 am 
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To make the rule clear - We are not allowed to tell our little brothers anything which could possibly be useful to them in deciding a move or to influence their moves in any way other than making corrections.

This post by Shaddy was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
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Offline Phelan
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #35 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:14 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 6... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-10/7 W-10/8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This seems forced to me, although I've been told in another thread that it isn't. The idea behind this move comes straight from my reading of Opening Made Easy: to avoid an extension from a corner enclosure. This way if black still extends, he can not extend as far, and we can still live on the right side.
Since black's extension is worth a lot, being an extension from both corners, stopping it is also worth a lot.

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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #36 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:07 pm 
Oza
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dangomango wrote:
with that said, since i didn't know beforehand

jts you can feel free to read my hidden posts
earlier post was somewhat for you


If there was an earlier hidden post that's me-appropriate, you can just post it without hide tags, I think.
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #37 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:21 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 7... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-10(6) W-10(7)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I changed the labels a little bit, now that we can use parentheses (woo!).

This is what I expect:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Move 6... P: B-0, W-0... C: B-10(6) W-10(7)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . 7 , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not actually sure where is best for white to finish, but I'm positive White needs to add a move somewhere, and then we get a move on the left side. I'm trying to think in advance about how we can attack W if white tenukis... R12, probably?
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Offline Phelan
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #38 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:54 pm 
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My move needs to be approved first though. :p

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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #39 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:57 pm 
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Offline dangomango
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #3
Post #40 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:33 pm 
Dies in gote

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if violence approves, i approve too
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