Teamovich 2

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:45 pm

WIC:

My suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm4 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This 3-4 seems good to me. There are few joseki from an approach which end in sente for black, so they will probably play a move in the last corner, allowing us to complete the shimari - which then seems to be facing the right way to potentially give us a very promising position along the top.

In more general terms, I think a 3-4 is probably the right way to go here, as Marcus has already indicated that we need to think about taking some territory soon, which a 4-4 or 4-5, or even 3-5, don't really do so well. And a 3-3 just feels wrong - although I have no experience in playing it (it's always felt horribly unambitious to me), so perhaps I'm unfairly dismissing it. As to the choice of this corner rather than the other, I'm not sure our 5-4 will work so well in a bitty diagonal fuseki.

This is all off the top of my head, though - I think I've chosen a decent move, but I'm sure there are plenty more good ones (perhaps better ones) for Mnemonic and Rafa to suggest instead

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:58 pm

WIC

Rafa · Post by **Rafa** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:39 am

WIC

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm4 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I say we let black make that triangular thing and take the corner at the top with 1.
Black´s moyo is not threatning, besides this way we can build up the top

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:27 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm4 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

WIC:

Observers only:

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:49 pm

WIC:

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:33 pm

WIC

I was ordered to post some thoughts, so here they are. Teammates: please feel free to improve/criticize any of these.
I am currently working on the assumption that D4 is blacks’ next move. It is the only open corner left and a 44 works very well with the current black stones. We would then get this: I have marked areas of interest.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm4 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . b . . . . . c c . . | $$ | . . O , a . . . . b . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . e . . . d . . . e . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Option A: This is really an interesting area and I think black will try and play here next. In contrast to the invasion at (c) it either sets up a nice position on top, or starts a complicated fight in which they can use their Tengen stone efficiently. But for white an enclosure just seems too slow as it would allow black to race around the board, taking big points.

Option B: At first I hadn't considered this, but now it looks really interesting. I'll have to think about this a bit more.

Option C: It is a nice exercise to look at possible continuations from the invasions, but I think this area is not that urgent for either white or black right now.

Option D: This is a normal splitting attack and here is a possible continuation. We have a semi stable group in blacks’ area of influence. Now our captain remarked it would probably not be too good to invade right now but this result seems acceptable to me. I have also considered several other black responses and I think this is the best they got.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 if 6 at 7 then we play at 6 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , 7 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 2 . . 1 . 4 . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Option E: If you don't like the above you still have the option of just approaching a corner. Black has several option of responding of which I think the pincer and the attachment are the most interesting.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . $$ | . . . X . 2 3 . . , $$ | . . . 6 5 1 . C C . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

could also be at the :ec:

points, but then black get's a very stable group and a huge corner. We would get sente and a group in blacks’ territory. I don't really know which one is better; I guess the decision can wait.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 3 . 9 . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . 8 5 7 . . $$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 6 0 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm16 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . 3 X O O 1 . . $$ | . . . . . O . X X X . 2 . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

We offset the influence of the black tengen stone nicely, but out group is floating with not really a lot of eyes. It's not optimal, but if you consider the picture if you jump in the corner instead it looks decent to me.

Option F: Approaching from that side just looks wrong, black can play high and start building a very scary framework while our group stays low with no real impact on the game.

In response to robinz

The easiest explanation that I can see is that our captain thinks the enclosure is too slow. (which I agree with) If that is the case, then it would be better to place the komoku in a way that favors us and not them. For example, how would you respond to this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm7 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

About invading: I don't know why everybody is against it. Now, following standard go theory you should invade at the last possible moment to give your opponent the hardest time to use the resulting influence efficiently. This comes from that the value of influence diminishes of time while the value of territory stays the same. At the start of the game you have a lot of time to use the resulting influence of a joseki, while the resulting influence of a fight in the middelgame might be hard to use because of the surrounding position. This might work for pros but it doesn’t work for your run-of-the-mill ddk.
1. DDK's don't know how to invade
2. DDK's don't know how to use influence.
That’s why I try to invade as early as possible to maximize my chances of living, not worrying about the resulting influence. The worst thing that can happen is that I invade at the pro timing, but miss a pro tesuji and die. Now my opponent has the territory AND the influence.

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:49 pm

WIC

My main gripe with playing anything on the top, is that I am afraid that black might play san-ren-sai and then the board starts to resemble this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm4 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now, I think this is considered universally bad for white because of the huge temperature drop after black gets the last star point, but luckily for us the board looks slightly different :twisted:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm4 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . M . . . | $$ | . . O , M . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After we play :w1:

, the left side hoshi is huge. If black plays san-ren-sai, the board will start to look like this. Now we have 2 defects in our moyo, but if black invades at those points he will be fighting on OUR turf. That way we have already negated most of the tengen stones usefulness. Additionally we have a good approach at :ec:

but because of our 4-5 stone, black doesn't have a similar one. What I'm trying to say is that a play around the upper hoshi starts to look really feasible. (Now I only have to find the correct position)

At the moment I am leaning towards either J16 or J17 because of their relationship with the 34 point. The question is: high or low?
After some thinking I got to the conclusion that high might be slightly better. first of I don't like this shoulder hit

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 3 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . 5 2 1 0 . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . B . . . . 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Secondly, as explained above they can't really allow us to take that side hoshi at :w3:

so I think they are going to play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm4 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , C . . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Now if we just wanted to defend at :ec:

then the lower variant would make more sense, but black would then just pull back and white will be plaster against the top while black has the whole rest of the board. That’s why I think we need to pincer and by playing high we put just a tiny amount of more pressure on black. After this I have no Idea what's going to happen, but be are fighting again on OUR turf, rendering the tengen stone useless :twisted:

(Are we on the right track, captain?)

My response to the question I asked robinz.

I think white is in a pickle here. You normally respond to a wedge by pressuring the stone from one side while building territory and then defend the other side. Let’s try this here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 1 . X . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 3 . , 6 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 14 somewhere on the right side $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 4 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 1 . X . . . . 2 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 8 . . , 5 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 4 9 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 1 . X . . 6 3 2 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 5 , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . O . X . . X O X 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 O , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . 6 . . . 4 3 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I'm not sure about :b23:

but black has a really strong group and can now freely attack the white stone. There is also still some aji in the corner stone. Alternatively white could try to extend from the 4-5 stone but then this just looks terrible

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 2 . . X . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Black extends calmly and destroys much of whites’ moyo potential on top. Additionally whites corner territory is wide open. :sad:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Maybe white should just protect the corner, but then black can tenuki and play :b8:

here to undercut the corner.

threeve · Post by **threeve** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:44 pm

BIC

Yup, I figured they might go for that corner next. It seems like they are going to want to develop along the top now. I hate to leave an empty corner, but maybe we should approach now, before they get a change to develop too much.

Here's my suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , 5 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I would expect something like the following (because that's about the only joseki-ish sequence I know for this approach...), but I think instead of the typical move around a we should instead go ahead and invade the right corner at 11 or x, since tengen should support the three stones in the left corner. Alternatively, we could use 11 to play in the last corner and come back later to the upper right corner and top side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . a . . . . . 7 x . . | $$ | . . O , 1 5 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was also looking at this, and it looks like it gets very complicated but with tengen I think the fighting would favor us. But I'm not sure it prevents white from developing along the top like I think we want to, so this is probably not a great choice.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 3 1 6 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:54 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , 5 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Team:

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:51 am

WIC:

Please forgive me for getting in first with what I feel is the "obvious" suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The usual josekis then give us a fair bit of corner, and sente to make the first play in the final corner. Black gets a fair bit of the top, but our 4-5 still has plenty of space to do useful stuff, so I think this is a decent enough result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X 4 . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(I don't necessarily mean these exact moves, but anything along these lines seems fine for us). Of course, black might play the avalanche instead - at which point I get way out of my depth (Mnemonic seems to know his joseki quite well though ;-)

). (Would seem a brave thing to do with DDKs choosing the moves for you though.)

Other options which might be better would be some kind of pincer, or a tenuki to either the last corner or to support our 4-5 in the upper right. I'll let my two team-mates choose which they think best of these options

I guess Redundant was really keen to play this approach immediately, seeing as he only got one suggestion. It's clearly going to lead to a fun game, but I'm far from convinced it was black's best choice.

Addendum, added a few minutes later:

Rafa · Post by **Rafa** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:03 am

WIC

When i sugested that move i already predicted black would do something like this.
In my opinion what ever move we play play will most likely ignore it and play the corner, because we need more stones to actually kill the stone at 1. If we play the joseki black can still break away from it and easily get a living shape or connect at the center, if the joseki is played that probably later black would aim at a and get the top like we originally intended to.
With a pincer we can still get the top left corner and build up the top. if our stone were at the star point i would even consider the three space away at f, but since this hasn´t happened i´m not sure if it is ok to play it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . b d f . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . O , 1 . c e . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:17 am

WIC

Arg. Black team I hate you!! :evil:

6.500 characters of analysis for nothing!!
Anyway, about the current situation, I'm fine with the avalanche and know a few continuations, however I don't think black will play it. If you look at this joseki you can see that black's last play is exactly at my invasion point in previous post (and you haven't given me a satisfactory answer as to how to handle it yet) Aditionally your play at a is very low. We might have to considre something like this to have at least some stones in the middel (of course playing like this would ruin our chances at invading at :ec:

but I don't know what kind of chance an invasion has with the black tengen stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 1 2 . C . . 8 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X 6 4 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . 5 . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

My point being: if we tenuki to the last corner we should stop thinking about the top right as "our corner" and more of an approach move that was already in place. (I was starting to feel good about this game after several hours of analysis, but someone on the black team is just playing crazy)

Some thoughts about my nomination: I don't think tenuki is an option. If black get's another move on the top left it is starting to look baaad :sad:

However, I really don't know any great responses. I will shortly go over some pincers before nomination my move.

The one space low:
We could hope for this where black plays :ec:

and we connect our group and get a huge corner. I'm not counting on it though, because they get 3 try's and someone might guess a (they could go crazy and play :w12:

or the 33 point or something similar where I then would be completely out of my depth :sad:

) That would separate us in 2 groups and remember: black has tengen.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 3 6 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 5 X 8 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The one space high:
The one space high looks something like this and is pretty straight forward. We get the corner and something at the side while black pincers (and probably kills) our other stone :-?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . 1 . 8 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . 3 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The two space high:
This might be the pincer I'd be looking at. It is not as close to white and therefor not that much at rich of being counter pincered (and dying), it also works more with our 4-5 stone. I don't really know any josekis for this one (or any high pincer really :sad:

) but there are some complicated lines if black plays the large knights move or the 3-5 attachment (at least I think that are blacks standard responses) We could get luck and win something

Long story short, I nominate the outside attachment E15. It builds up some influence and black is less likely to get a good invasion point for our 4-5 point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 With a or b as continuation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . 4 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

In my opinion what ever move we play play will most likely ignore it and play the corner, because we need more stones to actually kill the stone at 1.

Going with that logic you could look at J16 the high chinese (I posted some thoughts on it already)

Additional note. My computer finally fried yesterday and I'm in the process of getting a new one. My internet access will be flaky at best and I might not get to participate for the next few moves. Sorry Team (That also means I need to move our game this weekend Rafa. Sorry about that too :sad:

)

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:48 pm

WIC:

Rafa · Post by **Rafa** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:12 am

WIC

Mnemonic · Post by **Mnemonic** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:24 am

WIC (new move)

Life In 19x19

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