I saw this fuseki done a while ago and even posted it in the old GD forums. I thought I'd give it a try myself. In theory, I kind of know what it's supposed to do but I'm not sure how to execute it. Even though I won I'm not sure if I won because my opponent was confused or if I actually played it properly. In the end I got lucky with a big mistake from my opponent.
Experiment with a different fuseki
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chef
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Experiment with a different fuseki
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sholvar
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Re: Experiment with a different fuseki
ethanb wrote:In the end? I'd say move 10 won you the game.
I can not express how much I hate the expression "move x lost the game". There is no such thing. A move can give a huge advantage to the other side, but not lose the game. Maybe if the game is close and you fail to play the last big endgame then you can say that. But otherwise please, please, please only think of positional advantages/disadvantages, not win/lose.
(Also this game surely proves my point, because white is way ahead for most of the game, even after that early mistake. Did you actually look deeper into this game?)
@chef: Well, I personally think that it is very hard to gain from that kind of opening. It is nice that you experiment though. I admire that. From now on try to experiment more successfully with not saying "I play that opening to win" but to say something like "I play that opening to give me a shot for center territory later." or "I play that opening to get a huge moyo." or "I play that opening to gain a lot of territory early on to happily invade white later on."
You see, a good plan always has some "later on" part. Because you never win a game just with opening, just with middle game, or just with endgame. A strong player connects opening, middle and endgame to help each other, depending on what he knows and how he plays best. I for example like fighting invasions more then invading myself. So normally I play an opening that will lead to a big moyo, like the chinese opening or sanrensei. And because I like save territory more then all or nothing games, I often end up playing chinese. This is how you chose an opening. Of course experimenting with different openings is good and important. But as long as we are kyu players I also think that it might be good to read according literature to that opening while experimenting with it. Because we lack basic knowledge we need to learn from other people which move has what meaning in that opening. It is unlikely we find out by ourself (like what is the difference between high and low chinese) or through playing people in our strength. And yes, that means if an opening has not much literature to it, it might be a bad opening to study for us noobs, because even if we can win some games, we hardly can learn anything important and thus can not improve our game.
So I say it again, because I am not sure I expressed that clearly enough yet: Finding an opening is not about how to win the game, but how to connect to a middle game you like to play.
And that opening surely didn't win your game (to answer your question). After only making one big mistake at move 17 you fight against a big white advantage nearly the whole game and only get back to even after your opponent kills himself very, very big TWO times in the end. You won because of suicide, not because of the opening. Even after killing himself once big, he still got back to an advantage of more then 40 points. In this game I saw at least 2 points where I would resign to play a more meaningful game next time.
In the game review I hope to show that there are a lot of basics you need to learn before you should decide to move to openings who are not played by pros at all. And secondly I'd like to show you why your opening had nothing to do with your win (what hopefully gives you better judgement in your next games).
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Re: Experiment with a different fuseki
Apologies Sholvar, but I have to disagree. Surely that opening is all about influence. As such it can't be about directly getting a big center, instead black has to invade, cut and fight, and take territory from that. IMO chef should be trying to squeeze into the corners where possible and push white out into his influence so he can attack.
I also think that experiemtning with openings is just as important at kyu level as any other. Unusual openings have a lot to teach us, and if we aren't using them correctly... well, we're probably not using any opening optimally yet, so no worries. In fact, I'd not seen that opening before, so thanks chef, I may have to try it out soon.
No specific comments, because I think Sholvar generally had all else I'd say covered.
I also think that experiemtning with openings is just as important at kyu level as any other. Unusual openings have a lot to teach us, and if we aren't using them correctly... well, we're probably not using any opening optimally yet, so no worries. In fact, I'd not seen that opening before, so thanks chef, I may have to try it out soon.
No specific comments, because I think Sholvar generally had all else I'd say covered.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Experiment with a different fuseki
@Chef: Actually, your strategy did work. You built influence, cut, and as a result, he was weak enough to be attacked profitably. 
The only problem is that you didn't notice that your strategy had worked. 
At move 91, the basic outline of your attack is in place, cutting at J17. In the next score or so moves, your central influence supports those cutting stones, and you can attack at move 119 with M18.
You don't have to wait until he carelessly shorts himself on liberties. As best I can tell, if you play M18 from move 119 onward, he has to win a ko for life.
This doesn't work:
...nor does this:
...nor this:
...nor this:
...so the best for white may be this:
EDIT: this may be better. He still has to win it twice, but he takes first:
...but then, I'm not known for reading accuracy...
The only problem is that you didn't notice that your strategy had worked. At move 91, the basic outline of your attack is in place, cutting at J17. In the next score or so moves, your central influence supports those cutting stones, and you can attack at move 119 with M18.
You don't have to wait until he carelessly shorts himself on liberties. As best I can tell, if you play M18 from move 119 onward, he has to win a ko for life.
This doesn't work:
...nor does this:
...nor this:
...nor this:
...so the best for white may be this:
EDIT: this may be better. He still has to win it twice, but he takes first:
...but then, I'm not known for reading accuracy...
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ethanb
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Re: Experiment with a different fuseki
sholvar wrote:ethanb wrote:In the end? I'd say move 10 won you the game.
I can not express how much I hate the expression "move x lost the game". There is no such thing. A move can give a huge advantage to the other side, but not lose the game. Maybe if the game is close and you fail to play the last big endgame then you can say that. But otherwise please, please, please only think of positional advantages/disadvantages, not win/lose.
(Also this game surely proves my point, because white is way ahead for most of the game, even after that early mistake. Did you actually look deeper into this game?)
@chef: Well, I personally think that it is very hard to gain from that kind of opening. It is nice that you experiment though. I admire that. From now on try to experiment more successfully with not saying "I play that opening to win" but to say something like "I play that opening to give me a shot for center territory later." or "I play that opening to get a huge moyo." or "I play that opening to gain a lot of territory early on to happily invade white later on."
You see, a good plan always has some "later on" part. Because you never win a game just with opening, just with middle game, or just with endgame. A strong player connects opening, middle and endgame to help each other, depending on what he knows and how he plays best. I for example like fighting invasions more then invading myself. So normally I play an opening that will lead to a big moyo, like the chinese opening or sanrensei. And because I like save territory more then all or nothing games, I often end up playing chinese. This is how you chose an opening. Of course experimenting with different openings is good and important. But as long as we are kyu players I also think that it might be good to read according literature to that opening while experimenting with it. Because we lack basic knowledge we need to learn from other people which move has what meaning in that opening. It is unlikely we find out by ourself (like what is the difference between high and low chinese) or through playing people in our strength. And yes, that means if an opening has not much literature to it, it might be a bad opening to study for us noobs, because even if we can win some games, we hardly can learn anything important and thus can not improve our game.
So I say it again, because I am not sure I expressed that clearly enough yet: Finding an opening is not about how to win the game, but how to connect to a middle game you like to play.
And that opening surely didn't win your game (to answer your question). After only making one big mistake at move 17 you fight against a big white advantage nearly the whole game and only get back to even after your opponent kills himself very, very big TWO times in the end. You won because of suicide, not because of the opening. Even after killing himself once big, he still got back to an advantage of more then 40 points. In this game I saw at least 2 points where I would resign to play a more meaningful game next time.
In the game review I hope to show that there are a lot of basics you need to learn before you should decide to move to openings who are not played by pros at all. And secondly I'd like to show you why your opening had nothing to do with your win (what hopefully gives you better judgement in your next games).
I have to disagree a bit with the commentary you gave, honestly. I agree with Joaz - this looked like a win for black for much of the game. But, even had it been a miserable failure, you only get practice by doing.
The thing that makes playing from central power difficult is that it takes lots of practice and a strong grasp of whole-board strategy to know how to use it. You don't surround territory from it (unless you're sure that will win you the game easily, of course) but you attack. You split things up and force tough decisions on your opponent. And black was perfectly set up to hammer on white's weaknesses. At move 25 you say it's easy to see that black is overconcentrated, but in my opinion white has the tougher field to hoe. Could the technique be better? Sure. I agree that C7 wasn't far enough. But white's invasion is a MUCH worse mistake (compounded further by the black wall to the south, which is why I made the tongue-in-cheek remark that White 10 lost the game.)
Look at the situation at move 25 again: the power of the stones on the 11th rank is unquestioned, the stones to the south of white's are unconditionally alive, white's bottom side has no way to expand anywhere, and can even be crushed tiny into the corner. White will have to struggle hard to gain any benefit from saving these stones... I completely disagree that white is at an advantage here.
In essence, I agree with many of your tactical comments, but I feel that maybe you don't weigh the advantage of thickness heavily enough when evaluating a strategic overview of the situation. And the only reason I disagree with some of the tactical comments is because of this difference in evaluation of the power contained in black's thickness.
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chef
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Re: Experiment with a different fuseki
Thanks for all the advice guys. Although a bit conflicted it gave me alot to think about. The reason I went with tgis is because I've always been interested in tengen and middle board focused openings. I think it's a reflection of my play style, because even when I plag a more orthodox style my play natueally seems to progress to the middle.
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