98. Araban vs. Magicwand

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Magicwand
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 6 . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


since this game's main purpose is to teach skd's:
did everyone get the direction i blocked?
in my opinion this is the only move for white.

if i block it from other side...see below.
black will live comfortablely and i will have nothing but eggshell.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 7 . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 O . 8 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


all i see sofar is ko. i dont know what he has in mind..but i will soon findout.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Magicwand wrote:...all I see so far is ko...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
...


I have fuzzy memories of this being considered playable:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

...which continues like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 9 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Now white ends in sente, but the aji at :b1: can become a problem for white:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O b X O a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Now 'a' and 'b' are miai.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Jedo
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Jedo »

jts wrote:
What does "neeow" mean?

cat noise :mrgreen:
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
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Magicwand
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

each corner with one stone ..i value them as 5 points each.
and he has bottom which is about 12 point + alpha.
white has 6.5 komi and top influence worth morethan 10 points imo.
now...according to my calculation if i can get sente and approach 'a' as below then i will be ahead.

i have a feeling he is playing too timid game and might lose the flow and lose.
in my experience if you dont take a chance you will usually lose.
i guess lee chang-ho is very rare player that can play timid and still win.
between two equal strength players agressive players usually win.
that will be me :D
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 6 . X O . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Li Kao
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Li Kao »

Jedo wrote:
jts wrote:What does "neeow" mean?

catprobe noise :mrgreen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1oTU1MDhEY

And I think in it's also an ingame sound of the probe.
Sanity is for the weak.
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Solomon
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The probe has done its work. There is enough aji in the probe that it can live, but at the same time White is burdened in playing one more move there to eliminate the aji. The corner would be big, but 7 moves for a corner is not very efficient. If he leaves it alone, I will probably revive it once my center group is settled so it won't be a burden. And of course, if he invests another move in the corner then I'll just take another big move (Q10).

On a side note, I'm not a fan of the shimari. However I think the shimari is appropriate here as it keeps the top under control. White's upper left is strong, so I just need to neutralize its influence.
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . 8 , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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The greater the unknown"
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Magicwand
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

another basic count:
now he has about 22 + alpha points.
my all i need on top influence is about 16 ~ 20 points to stay even.
if i get sente i will have even big corner.
also if i approach "a" and if he has to invade..he will have two weak group.
it would be game over if that happens.
i think i am maintaining my komi sofar.

i see so many discussions by obs.
ask me question if you have any question..also let me know if the quality of comments i made sofar.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . a . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . 8 , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
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Solomon
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Pincers and a good extension from J4, can't go wrong with that. And to boot, it's my favorite pincer. Why? No idea, but the shape is aesthetically pleasing to me. And there are some interesting hamete w/ it too.
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Kirby »

@Araban:

Araban wrote:The probe has done its work. There is enough aji in the probe that it can live, but at the same time White is burdened in playing one more move there to eliminate the aji...


Thoguh I thought that I understood the concept of a probe, I do not quite understand what has been accomplished by playing the 3-3.

Namely, the following marked exchange has been made, right:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B W . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Why not simply leave this option for later?

If this is called a probe, there seems to suggest the possibility that an alternative move might be chosen by MW at a later time. For example, he might play here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this case, you can still live, right?

My main question is, if white's response to the 3-3 does not affect the life/death status of your group, why do you need his answer via a probe right now? Why not simply save the aji for later and immediately enclose the corner?
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Kirby
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Kirby »

@Magicwand:
You have been making great comments so far. What do you think about Araban's 3-3 play + tenuki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B O . X O . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Was there benefit to playing the 3-3 and then playing away? Would you have played a different way?

Also, are there any major mistakes that you see in this game?
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Magicwand
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

Kirby wrote:@Magicwand:
You have been making great comments so far. What do you think about Araban's 3-3 play + tenuki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B O . X O . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Was there benefit to playing the 3-3 and then playing away? Would you have played a different way?

Also, are there any major mistakes that you see in this game?

kirby:
personally i dont think the probe was necessary. but it is a probe..which means he wont lose any (visible) points.
my reasoning:
1. he had 3x3 point invasion anytime.
2. by marked exchange his one stone on the side loses it's aji making my influence grow.

his style is 100% point oriented game. it will fall apart like janga once it reachs the critical point.
right now i dont have any point pressure because i know i will get compensations out of my influence.
but i think he is starting to feel influence pressure.

even his corner defense i didnt like. if i was black i would play other marked point.
he will need to tradeoff his points for thickness orelse this game will not last too long.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B W . X O . . . . . a C X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . C , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Magicwand
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by gaius »

@ Araban:
Like Kirby, I don't really understand the value of the "probe" at 3-3...

Also, could you explain why you rejected this move?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . a . 1 . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Locally, I'd say that white does not really have a satisfactory followup, but black does. 'a' is out of the question for white: he'd get terribly overconcentrated, and the corner would still be open. But something like 'b' feels pretty overplayish too, because :b3: might be sente now (at least, I hate :w4: below, but tenuki also doesn't feel right to me...):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . 3 . . 1 . . 2 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 6 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

When in doubt, play the most aggressive move
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Kirby »

@Magicwand:
Thanks for the comments. I can understand your rationale about the probe. In regard to the following comment:
Magicwand wrote:...
his style is 100% point oriented game. it will fall apart like janga once it reachs the critical point.
right now i dont have any point pressure because i know i will get compensations out of my influence.
but i think he is starting to feel influence pressure.

even his corner defense i didnt like. if i was black i would play other marked point.
he will need to tradeoff his points for thickness orelse this game will not last too long.
...


I do not know if my own style reflects it, but I must say that I feel more comfortable with more points - so I can understand someone that likes a "point oriented game".

But you said that you don't have any point pressure because you know you "will get compensations out of my influence".

How can you be certain that you will get compensation? Also, even if you know you will get compensation, how do you quantify it and know that it will be enough to counter the points that black has?
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