98. Araban vs. Magicwand

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Solomon
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W B e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . d X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is a move I won't be able to play if I live immediately (is there Go terminology for this? I'm sure there is...). Anyways, it acts kind of like a probe. But of course it has to mean more than being able to get a move in; in other words, does it benefit me to play it at all?

I think so because I know I am forced to make two eyes here regardless => W must respond in a way to prevent me from making a 2nd eye by capturing :wc: (i.e., not 'e') if he wants me to make the 2nd eye by playing 'a'. But this may end up with him losing sente because if he plays, say, 'b' to save :wc: and then I respond with 'a' accordingly, it is not comfortable for W to leave me the option of playing 'c' and putting his B13 group at risk ('d' isn't full insurance).
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daal
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by daal »

Kirby wrote:
Araban wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . a . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If this move occurred to you for even a second, get it out your system asap. Yes it eyes the connection problem more strongly, but White playing 'a' is terribly, terribly painful and decimates the corner territory.
Do others agree with this (since "a" is gote)?
Since a follow-up move kills the corner, I don't see why "a" would be gote.
Patience, grasshopper.
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Kirby
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Kirby »

daal wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Araban wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . a . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If this move occurred to you for even a second, get it out your system asap. Yes it eyes the connection problem more strongly, but White playing 'a' is terribly, terribly painful and decimates the corner territory.
Do others agree with this (since "a" is gote)?
Since a follow-up move kills the corner, I don't see why "a" would be gote.
What I mean is that, locally it gives black a chance to take the initiative. For example, I don't know for sure if it works, but I feel at an instinct to play like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | 3 2 4 . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a W . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
or maybe at "a" before :b5:, first. Anyway, I feel like :w2:, above, gives black the chance to play an extra move against the lone marked stone.

So if white does something to help his stone - I don't know exactly what, then black can come back and protect his weakness later.

It might be worse than what was in the game, but I guess I don't totally get the explanation that :w2:, above will make a weakness in black's shape, when doing so will be gote in the immediate area for white, giving black the chance to make any fixes that he'd like to make.

In retrospect, however, the move played in the game does have the benefit in that the weakness around the marked white stone, above, still exists. So perhaps it is better.
be immersed
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Kirby
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Kirby »

@Araban:
Araban wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . a . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If this move occurred to you for even a second, get it out your system asap. Yes it eyes the connection problem more strongly, but White playing 'a' is terribly, terribly painful and decimates the corner territory.
Can you elaborate on the harm of playing as in the second diagram, above. I kind of see your point since "a" does hurt your shape, but white playing there seems to be gote in an extremely local sense.

I think if you explained a bit more thoroughly on this point, I would understand the benefits of the game move a bit better.
be immersed
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Joaz Banbeck
Judan
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Kirby wrote:
Araban wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . a . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If this move occurred to you for even a second, get it out your system asap. Yes it eyes the connection problem more strongly, but White playing 'a' is terribly, terribly painful and decimates the corner territory.
Do others agree with this (since "a" is gote)?
It starts like this, I presume that 5 is the intended follow up move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | 3 2 4 . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After the inevitable throw-ins, it looks like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | X O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Then white gets a flower-viewing ko:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | 2 X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | X O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If 5 in my first diagram is at D12, it is similarly bad for black.

That is the practical answer to it. A theoretical answer is that all of the black stones in the upper left have a purpose, and that purpose is to make eyes. Allowing white to push through at B15 betrays the purpose of 5 stones.

BTW, the logic of the last sentence suggests that Araban's most recent move should have been at B19. :scratch:
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Kirby »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Araban wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . a . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If this move occurred to you for even a second, get it out your system asap. Yes it eyes the connection problem more strongly, but White playing 'a' is terribly, terribly painful and decimates the corner territory.
Do others agree with this (since "a" is gote)?
It starts like this, I presume that 5 is the intended follow up move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | 3 2 4 . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After the inevitable throw-ins, it looks like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | X O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Then white gets a flower-viewing ko:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | 2 X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | X O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If 5 is at D12, it is similarly bad for black.

That is the practical answer to it. A theoretical answer is that all of the black stones in the upper left have a purpose, and that purpose is to make eyes. Allowing white to push through betrays the purpose of 5 stones.

BTW, the logic of the last sentence suggests that Araban's most recent move should have been at B19. :scratch:
Seems like a reasonable explanation. It looks like the shape problems there are more urgent than they first appeared to me.
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Magicwand
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i thought about this for 30 minute..
i saw this move yasterday realized that he can tenuki and get sente.
this is pretty big loss on white..
after 30 mintute of analyzing it..decided to let him have sente.
i think i have enough thickness to overcome the points.

i am sure sol explained fully why he is playing that move..and everyone else also contributed...
so i will not go in detail about current situation.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Kirby »

@Magicwand:
Magicwand wrote:this is what i expect. if he cut at "a" then he will lose big.
i dont expect him to make that kinda mistake.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X 4 3 . 7 |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X 6 . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 a . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . b . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
b: i think it is my right. (which means i have better chance to play that move)
c: i like this move. i dont think we expect me to play this move.
d: this look too fast. i might get attacked and lose my flow and lose.

Earlier, you said that if he cut at "a", he would lose big. Did you have a plan for his cut that you've now decided against?
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

Kirby wrote:@Magicwand:
Magicwand wrote:this is what i expect. if he cut at "a" then he will lose big.
i dont expect him to make that kinda mistake.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X 4 3 . 7 |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X 6 . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 a . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . b . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
b: i think it is my right. (which means i have better chance to play that move)
c: i like this move. i dont think we expect me to play this move.
d: this look too fast. i might get attacked and lose my flow and lose.

Earlier, you said that if he cut at "a", he would lose big. Did you have a plan for his cut that you've now decided against?
when i wrote the post i forgot about his tenuki. after that i realized that he will get sente.. i didnt have any plan.
i waited till this morning to verify my bad feeling took 30 minute to decide what to do.
i will lose some point because of gote..but i think it is not big as people think..

other options are even worse..
Last edited by Magicwand on Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The greater the unknown"
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
BTW, the logic of the last sentence suggests that Araban's most recent move should have been at B19. :scratch:
No, this is an example of "force before living". The move he rejected wasn't an example of that because it let white destroy his shape.

...or so I would have said before MW pointed out that this gives black sente. So in reality it's just a *better way to live*. :oops:
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Phelan »

Araban wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W B e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . d X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is a move I won't be able to play if I live immediately (is there Go terminology for this? I'm sure there is...). (...)
No term I can find, but there is a Sensei's page about it: PlayKikashiBeforeDefending
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W B a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If black plays B19 first, then cuts with :bc:, white will have no qualms about playing at 'a'. But if black cuts at :bc: first, and white plays at 'a', it would seem really silly for black to go play B19 now (as he can already make life by capturing :wc:. But if white plays something like 'b', then black will happily take B19 knowing that he has forced white to make the suboptimal exchange :bc: - b and introduced a ton of aji into white's position.
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Originally I had thought that with the last move W played, I could play elsewhere (or if he had played at 'a', I could then play :bc: and would feel good about leaving the aji before living (see my explanation in my previous post).

However, I didn't want to be careless and verify that if W does play :wc: , then I would live. So naturally I had to consider this possibility:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . c X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
And the question becomes whether the :w5: group is dead. After some reading, it's pretty clear that if W tries to live with 'b', then W will lose the liberty race and I'll be fine. The problem is when W plays at 'c':
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 1 X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
There are two moves for me to consider: 'a' and 'b'. I think the first move that has to come in everyone's mind is 'a', so I'll go over that move first.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 2 8 b . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 5 O X 6 X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 a 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Clearly this is problematic. I can't protect both 'a' and 'b' (note the problem 'c' causes) and won't be able to save my corner this way. I don't think I need to explain why :b7: at :w8: doesn't work either. But don't take my word for it. Let's say I protect at 'b':
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | X 3 X O X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 2 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The ko variation is no good either. If I try to protect at 'a':
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O 3 X 5 . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O 4 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | X . X O X 6 X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
And W's group escapes.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If I hane the other way, one may already get bad feelings up to :w4: . While W is shut off from the outside world (Image) and not alive, neither is B.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O 4 X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 2 O X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The :w4: -> :b5: exchange is needed for W to make it a snapback and ensure it's not ko. After reading this through, I found B to lose the liberty race. I also considered :b1: at :w2: (no difference) and at :b3: (no difference).

There are a lot of variations and I could have easily made an oversight. However, the point is not whether I'm right or wrong; the point is that observers realize why I play the moves I play. Isn't that the point of Malkovich games? Anyways, hopefully I've made some sense behind my contradicting play of 63 from 61.
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Magicwand
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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
want to make sure he doesnt give up.
it is sort of probe.. from what i can see i think he will answer but how??
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Magicwand
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Posts: 4844
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:26 am
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
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Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 504 times

Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand

Post by Magicwand »

for obs
if he happens to tenuki ...black group die.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X O . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X , . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . X O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 4 . 6 . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i can not figure why he didnt tenuki upper left.
i think it has to do with his group in the middle..but i am not sure.
edit:
after some thought... i realized he is thinking that he is ahead comfortably and playing safe move.
i dont agree with that assessment but i might be wrong.. :)
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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