Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post Reply
User avatar
Loons
Gosei
Posts: 1378
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:17 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Has thanked: 253 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Loons »

Not for players:
I have a niggling feeling about Joaz's sequence.

Edit: Oh yeah, for everyone who doesn't have the exact same reading patterns and abilities as me, Joaz seems to assume black will not ignite the obvious high value ko, which, though it looks pokey for black I don't see a satisfactory resolution to for white (black has a few local threats to live through killing the north north west group, and white has his hands tied for many moves bar large threats). Presumably Violence and Shapenaji both have an idea of how this "should" go, so I'm surious to see how and why they play or avoid this.

Also, it's entirely possible the ko I'm seeing is wholly imaginary, I'm going to go look again, might add a diagram in a few minutes.

Edit edit: It seems real, I am relatively confident shapenaji will change Joaz's move (to what I don't know). Unless some sort of ko-y trade is satisfactory considering white's power dominates the rest of the board. Diagram still to come.

Edit edit edit: Right, Joaz' 4 at 6 W seems unconditionally alive (very probably) and black seems to have to live in gote. Final memo!

Post-final edit edit edit edit: I think black can tenuki after white lives and achieve seki (given 4 at 6))(bar my obvious mistakes), which may not be satisfactory. Watch none of this be true! (This edit was wrong, I mistakenly thought black N19 was sente in my last diagram, which it is not. Relatedly, I just editted in a jamboree of diagrams in my next hidden section.)


Why am I handmaking diagrams I should download drago
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm136 Joaz' 136
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 1 . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . 2 X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O C . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Idle speculation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 7 O 6 . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . 1 . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X O 9 O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X W B 3 O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 2 O O 4 X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |[/go]

5@ :wc:
8@ :bc:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Idle speculation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . 3 O O X . e t c X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O 2 O X . . 6 O 5 O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X O O O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X W B O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |[/go]

11@ :wc:
14@ :bc:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 With Joaz' 4 at his 6. NB Some variation possible, black must also live in gote.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 5 O 4 y b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X m a e 2 . O X 3 . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X k e s X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X i X X O X 1 O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |[/go]

Might actually be my final edit: Note i is sente against life. Oh, N19 wasn't sente for black. Removing that. I guess they must live in gote. I guess good for W.
Well that was onerous but maybe you get the idea



For Violence:
You gotta let us know how this ends, it is too much reading for me to be confident at all. Or I could just watch the show, I guess.
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.
Top
User avatar
shapenaji
Lives in sente
Posts: 1103
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:58 pm
Rank: EGF 4d
GD Posts: 952
Location: Netherlands
Has thanked: 407 times
Been thanked: 422 times

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by shapenaji »

Approved.
Tactics yes, Tact no...
Top
User avatar
topazg
Tengen
Posts: 4511
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Location: Chatteris, UK
Has thanked: 1579 times
Been thanked: 650 times
Contact:
Contact topazg

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by topazg »

@Joaz:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O O X X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . X X O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 2 3 . X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 4 X X . X O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A ko? Does this not work?
Top
User avatar
Shaddy
Lives in sente
Posts: 1206
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:44 pm
Rank: KGS 5d
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Str1fe, Midorisuke
Has thanked: 51 times
Been thanked: 192 times

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Shaddy »

topazg wrote:@Joaz:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O O X X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . X X O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 2 3 . X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 4 X X . X O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A ko? Does this not work?

Topaz:
It does not, black will connect with 3 and then j14 is a double threat.
Top
User avatar
topazg
Tengen
Posts: 4511
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Location: Chatteris, UK
Has thanked: 1579 times
Been thanked: 650 times
Contact:
Contact topazg

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by topazg »

Shaddy wrote:
It does not, black will connect with 3 and then j14 is a double threat.


Yes, you're quite right. I just wondered why Joaz chose the 4 he did. I was wondering if there was a liberty issue with White's top group that I'd missed that was behind his choice of a ko.
Top
User avatar
Joaz Banbeck
Judan
Posts: 5546
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Location: Banbeck Vale
Has thanked: 1080 times
Been thanked: 1434 times

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

topazg wrote:@Joaz:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O O X X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . X X O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 2 3 . X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 4 X X . X O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A ko? Does this not work?


You're right. It looks like I showed an inferior line for black. Nonetheless, it still ends up a ko, I think:

[hide]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O O X X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . X X O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X 2 5 . X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X 3 X X 6 X O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O 4 O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
Violence
Lives in sente
Posts: 754
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:12 am
Rank: Something Dan
GD Posts: 720
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Violence »

Loons:
We get to live unconditionally in gote. From my reading, if they try to make any kinds of kos, it will not be beneficial for them, and anyways, they get the first move in the lower right/bottom.
Top
User avatar
Joaz Banbeck
Judan
Posts: 5546
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Location: Banbeck Vale
Has thanked: 1080 times
Been thanked: 1434 times

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Just to make sure that everybody is on the same page: TTBOMK, this is the current position, Shapenaji has approved for white, and it is black's move. Gresil?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm134 Move 134 W65 B60
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 3 . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X O . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O 2 |
$$ | . O O O C . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


BTW, while I'm clarifying things - does anyone have an accurate prisoner count?
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
User avatar
shapenaji
Lives in sente
Posts: 1103
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:58 pm
Rank: EGF 4d
GD Posts: 952
Location: Netherlands
Has thanked: 407 times
Been thanked: 422 times

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by shapenaji »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
BTW, while I'm clarifying things - does anyone have an accurate prisoner count?


The prisoner count as it stands is, I think, only composed of the prisoners we traded. (Unless you guys have been adding prisoners from captured stones)

If everyone is amenable, I say we only use that one for prisoner trades, and just count the board chinese. Then use the prisoner difference as komi. It's really hard to track lots of captures each move, I feel chinese will be easier...
Tactics yes, Tact no...
Top
User avatar
Mnemonic
Lives in gote
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:41 pm
Rank: KGS 7 kyu
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Mnemonic, dude13
Location: Dresden
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Mnemonic »

BTW, while I'm clarifying things - does anyone have an accurate prisoner count?

Yes, I do, and your count is WRONG as noted in this post. Everyone liked it but no one actually changed anything :batman:

Black has one real prisoner and 60 due to changes made by white and white also has one real one and 64 due to changes. Totalling up to B: 65 and W: 61. And your movenumber is also still wrong


Code: Select all

$$Bcm141 Move 141 W65 B61
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
Top
User avatar
SpongeBob
Lives in gote
Posts: 499
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:18 pm
Rank: Fox 3D
GD Posts: 325
Location: Germany
Has thanked: 213 times
Been thanked: 96 times

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by SpongeBob »

Oh, by the way, Mnemonic, do you have a ZIP archive of the beginning of the game which started on GD, by any chance?
Stay out of my territory! (W. White, aka Heisenberg)
Top
User avatar
shapenaji
Lives in sente
Posts: 1103
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:58 pm
Rank: EGF 4d
GD Posts: 952
Location: Netherlands
Has thanked: 407 times
Been thanked: 422 times

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by shapenaji »

Um, we gonna continue this one? we're in danger of going abandoned here...
Tactics yes, Tact no...
Top
User avatar
Joaz Banbeck
Judan
Posts: 5546
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Location: Banbeck Vale
Has thanked: 1080 times
Been thanked: 1434 times

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Back on Feb 20th,
Gresil wrote:I'm sorry about my slow play and shallow thought—I've been very busy at work, and starting tomorrow I'll be twice as busy and stressed for the next month or so...


I'm assuming that we were waiting on Gresil to get back from his busy period. We could play at least one move without him, since the next is a no-brainer.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
Violence
Lives in sente
Posts: 754
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:12 am
Rank: Something Dan
GD Posts: 720
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 144 times

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Violence »

Well... it's been over a month now, hasn't it? what'll become of this game?
Top
User avatar
Joaz Banbeck
Judan
Posts: 5546
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Location: Banbeck Vale
Has thanked: 1080 times
Been thanked: 1434 times

Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

I've been wondering that myself. It is Gresil's move.

Back on Feb 20th...
Gresil wrote:I'm sorry about my slow play and shallow thought—I've been very busy at work, and starting tomorrow I'll be twice as busy and stressed for the next month or so....


The last time he visited these forums was Feb 24th. It has been a month and 12 days. PMs obviously won't work. Anybody know how to get in touch with him by other means?
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
Post Reply

Return to “Big Brother Malkovich games”