95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
-
jts
- Oza
- Posts: 2662
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:17 pm
- Rank: kgs 6k
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 310 times
- Been thanked: 632 times
Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Is there a strategic difference between finishing the 3-4 enclosure with the 4-5 and finishing it with the 3-5? I get that the 4-5 has an open skirt (is that the right term, when there's no black stone under it yet?) and is higher, 3-5 grips the corner the corner a little more strongly, but what's the strategic purpose you're trying to accomplish when you choose one over the other?
-
daniel_the_smith
- Gosei
- Posts: 2116
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:51 am
- Rank: 2d AGA
- GD Posts: 1193
- KGS: lavalamp
- Tygem: imapenguin
- IGS: lavalamp
- OGS: daniel_the_smith
- Location: Silicon Valley
- Has thanked: 152 times
- Been thanked: 330 times
- Contact:
Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Playing high makes it possible to develop in two directions.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com
-
daniel_the_smith
- Gosei
- Posts: 2116
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:51 am
- Rank: 2d AGA
- GD Posts: 1193
- KGS: lavalamp
- Tygem: imapenguin
- IGS: lavalamp
- OGS: daniel_the_smith
- Location: Silicon Valley
- Has thanked: 152 times
- Been thanked: 330 times
- Contact:
Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
That's the idea, although H16 is way too close on this board.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com
-
Aphelion
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 766
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:14 pm
- Rank: KGS 4 kyu
- GD Posts: 227
- KGS: Aphelion02
- Has thanked: 24 times
- Been thanked: 59 times
Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
I realize I've been a little flippant with my comments recently so I'm hoping to rectify that a bit.
Warning: half baked ideas ahead
I think most people will agree with me that the left side is the important side in this position. Almost as importantly, the next move should affect the status of the unbalanced corner in some fashion. a, b, c, d are the moves that I considered that would address both concerns. Technically e and f work too, but I never seriously took notice of them because I dislike wide shimaris viscerally, and more importantly, I simply don't understand them very well.
The two Chinese formations at c and d are inappropriate I think, because of the marked black stones inhibit development on the top and bottom for both sides. The Chinese formations thrive best when there are mutiple good areas for development. The current board doesn't facilitate that.
The choice between a and b has to do what I perceive as my strengths on this board and what type of game I want to play as a result. From my point of view, the marked Black formation are too loose and thin. They feel overworked, and where they have efficiency they lack in solidity. This is in contrast to my strong corner jutting out from the lower right. It seems evident to me that a central focus of the midgame will be judging the timing and fashion to exploit this weakness. Because Black is thin on the right, I don't want to play a move that settles the game too quickly. It seems to me with the low shimari the game quickly gets boring, with no sense that White had particularly interesting prospects anywhere. Black doesn't feel too much pressure to make a weak group, and as a result its difficult for White to engineer a situation where he can contrast his solidity with respect to Black weakness.
With the high move however, not only do I have more influence facing the top and right, but if Black jumps in to the left, he naturally pushes me toward the top right (which he doesn't want)
What do stronger players think about this positions and my fuseki ideas?
Warning: half baked ideas ahead
I think most people will agree with me that the left side is the important side in this position. Almost as importantly, the next move should affect the status of the unbalanced corner in some fashion. a, b, c, d are the moves that I considered that would address both concerns. Technically e and f work too, but I never seriously took notice of them because I dislike wide shimaris viscerally, and more importantly, I simply don't understand them very well.
The two Chinese formations at c and d are inappropriate I think, because of the marked black stones inhibit development on the top and bottom for both sides. The Chinese formations thrive best when there are mutiple good areas for development. The current board doesn't facilitate that.
The choice between a and b has to do what I perceive as my strengths on this board and what type of game I want to play as a result. From my point of view, the marked Black formation are too loose and thin. They feel overworked, and where they have efficiency they lack in solidity. This is in contrast to my strong corner jutting out from the lower right. It seems evident to me that a central focus of the midgame will be judging the timing and fashion to exploit this weakness. Because Black is thin on the right, I don't want to play a move that settles the game too quickly. It seems to me with the low shimari the game quickly gets boring, with no sense that White had particularly interesting prospects anywhere. Black doesn't feel too much pressure to make a weak group, and as a result its difficult for White to engineer a situation where he can contrast his solidity with respect to Black weakness.
With the high move however, not only do I have more influence facing the top and right, but if Black jumps in to the left, he naturally pushes me toward the top right (which he doesn't want)
What do stronger players think about this positions and my fuseki ideas?
-
Laman
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 655
- Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 10:24 pm
- Rank: 1d KGS
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Laman
- Location: Czechia
- Has thanked: 29 times
- Been thanked: 41 times
- Contact:
Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Aphelion: i mostly agree with you
there is not much difference between low and high shimari, but the high one feels more appropriate to the board position.
black upper right is indeed not very strong, but it is not really weak either. so both players want to play there, however not too early - optimal is to play there just before your opponent would play there
. this situation also strengthens importance of the upper side, which affects the balance of powers in the area
i think your last diagram is too good for white, i would be more inclined to play as below:
if white plays 20 at 21, black answers with 21 at 'a', exploiting weakness of the high shimari
other variations surely possible
there is not much difference between low and high shimari, but the high one feels more appropriate to the board position.
black upper right is indeed not very strong, but it is not really weak either. so both players want to play there, however not too early - optimal is to play there just before your opponent would play there
. this situation also strengthens importance of the upper side, which affects the balance of powers in the areai think your last diagram is too good for white, i would be more inclined to play as below:
if white plays 20 at 21, black answers with 21 at 'a', exploiting weakness of the high shimari
other variations surely possible
Spilling gasoline feels good.
I might be wrong, but probably not.
I might be wrong, but probably not.
-
Aphelion
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 766
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:14 pm
- Rank: KGS 4 kyu
- GD Posts: 227
- KGS: Aphelion02
- Has thanked: 24 times
- Been thanked: 59 times
Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Laman: I agree, my diagram was too good for White. That wedge is always such a blind spot of mine because it feels too "passive", but I think your diagram illustrates that it sometimes has better followups that just aggressively approaching enemy stones. I think in your last diagram, I'd ignore the black approach to play on the top.
Balmung: Its good not to play too fast, but don't take too long either
Balmung: Its good not to play too fast, but don't take too long either
-
topazg
- Tengen
- Posts: 4511
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
- Rank: Nebulous
- GD Posts: 918
- KGS: topazg
- Location: Chatteris, UK
- Has thanked: 1579 times
- Been thanked: 650 times
- Contact:
Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Aphelion wrote:What do stronger players think about this positions and my fuseki ideas?
I think they are very good, and I agree with Laman that Black approaching directly under the shimari feels premature, and I like his variation better, but the principle of playing high I think is good, and I'd either have played that or C11. The natural move White wants next is C9, and I'm torn for Black between preventing White's extension on top (if O17 was at P16, I'd play at the top immediately as Black, but as it is Black feels a bit sort of flat - it's still big, and I have a habit of undervaluing double wings generally, so it might even be correct here, it just doesn't press the right buttons for me), and breaking White's development on the left side.
EDIT: In a real game, I'd probably play Laman's sequence exactly, and then it's up to White to handle Black's intimidating (but flat
) top right corner. If you ignored to play at the top (actually, I think I prefer that for White), Black I think has to approach the shimari purely to settle and increase aji - he can't let White both extend and get to come back and protect / enlarge that corner. You then have the option of playing in the top, preventing the double wing again and making the aji at "a" come alive. Interesting position -
balmung
- Lives with ko
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:20 pm
- Rank: Kgs 5k
- GD Posts: 146
- KGS: Thomato
- Online playing schedule: Inconsistent
- Location: Columbia, SC
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)
Hey it's going to be a while before I can play on this game again(or Go for that matter). I have alot of work to do plus girl troubles so I won't be on for a while.
“I’m here to play go and chew bubble gum, and I’m all out of gum”- misquoted duke nukem