Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

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Joaz Banbeck
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Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

I've been reading "A Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - The Korean Style" from Kisedo. ( It is heavy on diagrams, with little connective text. But if you work at it, you can get some of the idea of what is going on. )

There are problems in the back of the book. I'm starting on them, to see if I have really learned anything. I invite others to join me.

For the diagram below, they ask which white move is better to contest black's growing strength in the top right:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X a . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by emerus »

I would say B because just taking the corner will give black too much influence. Reduce rather than invade.

Wbaduk has some interesting opening/judgement problems that I do extremely poorly on so this will be interesting to follow.
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

My initial opinion is this:
The corner is invadable, at either R16 or R17. To invade the corner compels black to build the outside wall which greatly restricts the success of follow up moves to 'b' ( someplace around 'c' ).
But the most likely responses to 'b' will still leave the corner invadable.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X a . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Dusk Eagle »

I'll guess 'b'. If you play 'a', this sequence might happen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . 2 4 . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . 6 X 1 . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 8 , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And white's group is still kind of weak, meaning black will likely profit along the top.

Meanwhile, if you play 'b', you can reduce the side, invade the top corner if black answers with a keima, and your stone helps put slight pressure on the top.
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by emerus »

Dusk Eagle wrote:
I'll guess 'b'. If you play 'a', this sequence might happen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . 2 4 . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . 6 X 1 . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 8 , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And white's group is still kind of weak, meaning black will likely profit along the top.

Meanwhile, if you play 'b', you can reduce the side, invade the top corner if black answers with a keima, and your stone helps put slight pressure on the top.


I personally wouldnt mind this as W. I do think W owes another move locally so B will have sente.

Personally I feel more worried about another variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . 0 7 . 5 . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X 1 9 . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 8 |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black feels too strong and white too gote...
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by CnP »

I've got no chance ! but
I like the the probe at a - in disagreement with all the much stronger players :lol: :lol:
Mainly because it reminds me a lot of an example in Strategic concepts of Go (G6), e.g. page 55. Force black to settle his shape then take advantage or preserve aji or something .. clearly probes aren't always right though.. still I like trying new things.
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Dusk Eagle wrote:... If you play 'a', this sequence might happen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . 2 4 . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . 6 X 1 . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 8 , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And white's group is still kind of weak, meaning black will likely profit along the top.
...


If I thought that black would force me outward as shown above, I'd play 'a' without hesitation.
This looks good for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . e . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , 2 . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . 1 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 X , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's invasion is looking hard to kill, and he still has secondary invasions around 'd' and 'e'.
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by gaius »

I would play 'b', aiming at making black overconcentrated. For example, if :b2: then :w3: becomes perfect:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

'a' doesn't really make me happy, because a black wall towards the center without a white reduction in place looks too good for black (I think):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Stable »

I'm with Gaius and Joaz on this. When will you look at the answer J?
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Magicwand »

it is nice to talk about which move is better but...
at our (not pro) level it doesnt matter which move we select.
they both are very good moves IMO.
from looking at two..i feel they are both excellent moves.
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

But if we learn to make all the choices like a pro, we will be as strong as a pro. :D
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Magicwand »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:But if we learn to make all the choices like a pro, we will be as strong as a pro. :D


my point is that this problem is beyond the scope of amature players.
it will be more beneficial for us to study problems that actually help us get stronger.
i think even professionals will disagree on which move is better.
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Magicwand wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:But if we learn to make all the choices like a pro, we will be as strong as a pro. :D


my point is that this problem is beyond the scope of amature players.
it will be more beneficial for us to study problems that actually help us get stronger.
i think even professionals will disagree on which move is better.

While I agree, I also think that if you enjoy thinking about problems like these, you can still get benefit from it. The benefit may be low, but if it's far more enjoyable to some people than other types of problems, there's nothing wrong with doing them.
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

It appears that the concensus of 'b' is correct, and Gaius came very close to the exact answer:

Dictionary of Modern Fuseki wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1 wrong answer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . 8 7 . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . . X 1 5 . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...after 10, black's stones are thick and their influence is overwhelming...white needs one more move to secure the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1 right answer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X 0 6 5 3 . . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . 9 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem 1 right answer continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X X X O O 3 . |
$$ | . O O , O . X . . , . . . . O X X 1 . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...white's territory is better than black's influence.


They don't mention anything about overconcentration, but I think that it is implied here.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Problem 2 is here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3401
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