Teamovitch #1

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Chew Terr
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . W . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , d . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O c . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


These are the moves I want. In the top left, I just want something emphasizing thickness. I'm also okay with a move where black would have to cut and fight to get out, since we're so strong locally. Basically at the moment, I'm trying to emphasize any move that will increase the size of our top, left, and middle, ideally combined. The marked stone is my first priority (and my suggestion), but 'a' in particular seems to carry some threat below. 'a' could probably be a bit further, though...
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by tj86430 »

I just realised I haven't suggested anything,

WIC:

I really don't know what to say. I still like top-center, but since it didn't get our esteemed captains approval, I must think of something else. Unfortunately Chew's a, b and c all look kinda small to me. I really don't know what to say. Perhaps capturing the cutting stone?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'll suggest that, although it doesn't feel right either.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

Just waitin' on you Red :)
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Redundant »

I still like c16. Settle things locally and get more influence toward the left. The top left feels like the right place to play, and e17 feels like the wrong direction.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Team:

Ok, I'm picking Chew's E17, because I think the cut + ladder makes the top really interesting to us, and was one of the reason I was so happy playing it in sente (as Black has to look after the corner) - to me, this whole sequence works towards us developing something really large.

C16, in gote, feels too slow now. We can't afford to give Black too many easy points, and corner points + sente just feels like we're going to end up behind. I think the balance of influence and power is our chance to make a mark on this game.

TJ, we may well want to play that move, but not until the top is ours. If we play it now, Black gets to play a ladder-breaker whilst breaking out of the corner (in sente, or else why did we play to capture it), then gets to pincer on the left and start attacking everything. If we don't make something with our wall now, we may never get the chance.

I quite like a few of Chew's suggestions for developing the framework, but timing is everything. We can almost guarantee Black will take care of the corner here, so depending on the final result it may be easier to decide where we take out next move.


Obs:

I wanted E16 :( (I also still slightly preferred D17 to E17)
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by fwiffo »

Black suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think we should follow-up and live in the corner. I don't know 5-4 joseki well, but the ones I know start with a or :b45:, and then :b45: or a respectively (they're just transpositions of the same thing).

If we do decide to tenuki, b, c or some move to activate the right side stone are the options that jump out at me. But I don't think we should tenuki (and I'm still not sure how to use that right side stone).
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Jedo »

Have to agree with Fwiffo here, and I like this order the best. I'm fairly familiar with 5-4 stuff, so most likely:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 8 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 9 6 0 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 4 . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
As best I recall, this is the standard reply by most pros.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Redundant »

I'll vote hane, who wants to vote extend? Basically only two moves here.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by tj86430 »

Redundant wrote:I'll vote hane, who wants to vote extend? Basically only two moves here.

I can do that.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Chew Terr »

I'll suggest the wedge. It looks like overplay, but over play that ALMOST kinda works. And anyways, it's better than A1, which was the other move I was going to suggest. =)
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Jordus »

*BUMP*
I'm thinking...
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Apologies, I forgot it was my move :)

Obs+Team:

Tenuki is not an option. We have the ladder, we hane.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by fwiffo »

Black suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 8 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 9 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The joseki I know proceeds like this. We push with :b47: to allow us to counterhane with :b49:. Consider this a trigger.
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Re: Teamovitch #1

Post by Jordus »

Black Suggestion:

Both Fwiffo and Jedo suggested the same sequence. Majority rules I guess?
I'm thinking...
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