Positional judgement exercises

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Bill Spight
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Positional judgement exercises

Post by Bill Spight »

Honinbo Jowa recommended assessing the position after move 30, move 50, and move 100. (I take those numbers to be approximate. :) )

So I thought it might be interesting to show a top pro game at around those points, so people could give it a try. I have no answers, just the final score.

Edit: I have added another at note #7.
And another at note #13.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Yasui Chitoku (W) vs. Honinbo Genjo, after move 34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . O X , . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W After move 56
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . O . . O . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . X X X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O X . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . O X , . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W After move 102, 1 White prisoner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . O X X O X X X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O , O O O O O O O . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . X . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . X . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . O X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . O . O X . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . O X , . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O X . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Final board:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B After move 231, 1 Black prisoner, 4 White prisoners, Black wins by 9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X O X . X . . . X X O |
$$ | O O . O . O X X O X X X O . . . . X O |
$$ | X O O , O O O O O O O O X X X X X O O |
$$ | X X X X O X O . . . . O O X . X O O . |
$$ | X O O X X X . . X X X X X . X . O . . |
$$ | O . O X . X O O X O X O . . . X X O . |
$$ | . O O X O X X . . O X X O . . O X O . |
$$ | O . . O O X . X . . O O X X X X O . . |
$$ | . O O O X . O X . O . X O . . , O . . |
$$ | O . O X X X X O O . X X O O X X O . . |
$$ | X O . O O X . X O . X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X X X . O X X X O X O . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O X O O O O X . X X O . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O X O X . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X , O O . O X X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O O X . . X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X . . . . X X X X O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And the game record:



Enjoy! :)
Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Positional judgement exercise

Post by Magicwand »

thank you for intresting game.
i feel that black led start to end.
white never had any chance (or if he had any..he didnt grab it)
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Re: Positional judgement exercise

Post by Kirby »

Here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Yasui Chitoku (W) vs. Honinbo Genjo, after move 34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . O X , . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I am playing black, I think that I am losing.

If I am playing white... I think that I am losing. :scratch:
be immersed
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Re: Positional judgement exercise

Post by mw42 »

Kirby wrote:
Here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Yasui Chitoku (W) vs. Honinbo Genjo, after move 34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . O X , . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I am playing black, I think that I am losing.

If I am playing white... I think that I am losing. :scratch:


So it's even? :lol:
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Re: Positional judgement exercise

Post by Dusk Eagle »

I thought the first two looked even, then in the third one I preferred black. I didn't count though, or consider the (lack of) komi.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Re: Positional judgement exercise

Post by Bill Spight »

BTW, I admire :b45:. :) I doubt if I would find it over the board.

:b57: is very good, too.

My assessments:

The first two positions seem pretty equal to me. OC, Black has sente, so he has an advantage.

The third position favors Black, IMO. Playing a peer without komi, I would feel very confident. :) The +9 result seems about right, given this position.
The Adkins Principle:
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— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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Re: Positional judgement exercise

Post by Bill Spight »

How about another one? :)

Enjoy!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Okunuki Chisaku (W) vs. Jowa, move 38, 1 Black prisoner, 1 White prisoner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Move 60, 1 Black prisoner, 1 White prisoner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . . O . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . O , X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X X O . O . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Move 110, 1 Black prisoner, 1 White prisoner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . X O O . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X O X . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . X O , . X . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . X O X X . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X O O X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . X O O . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . X X O . . O . X X O O . . |
$$ | . X . , O . . . O , X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O . X . X X O . O . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Final board:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black wins by 9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X X O O . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X O O X O O O O O O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X O X X X X O O X . . X |
$$ | . . X X X O . X O O . X . . . X X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . X O X X . . O O X O O O |
$$ | X X O O X O O O X O O X . O X X O . . |
$$ | O O O O X O . O X . O X . O X X O . . |
$$ | O X X X X X . X X . O X X O X O O . . |
$$ | X X . . X O . . . . O O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . , . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . X X X X X . . X O . O . . |
$$ | X O X X O O O X . . X O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O . O X . . X . X X X O . . |
$$ | O X O O O O . O O X . X . X O O . . . |
$$ | O X X X O O . . O X X . X X X O O . . |
$$ | O X . , O O . O O O X . X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O O O O . . . . O X . X . X . X O . |
$$ | O . . . O . O . O O X X . X . . X X O |
$$ | . O . O . . O O . O O O X . . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
The Adkins Principle:
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Re: Positional judgement exercise

Post by topazg »

White - Black - Black for me on this second one :)
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Re: Positional judgement exercise

Post by Kirby »

Based on feeling alone, I favor white for the first diagram, and black for the second two.


Edit: I was ninja-ed.
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Re: Positional judgement exercises

Post by mw42 »

I thought black was ahead the whole game. Initially, I liked white in the first diagram mostly because of the top right corner, but as it was black's move I figured he'd get to play there first.

For the first game, I thought all the diagrams were more or less even perhaps with a white edge in the first. After I saw there was no komi, I preferred black for the third diagram, but I may have been influenced by also knowing the result.
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Re: Positional judgement exercises

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Again, just a quick look, but I prefer black all the way through.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Re: Positional judgement exercises

Post by Bill Spight »

That Jowa magic is wonderful to behold. :)

Position 1: I felt was pretty even. OC, Black has the advantage of sente.

Position 2: Black is ahead, because of the weakness of White's bottom left group.

Positon 3: I misjudged this one, because I did not fully appreciate the weakness of White's group on the bottom side. I thought the position was pretty close. However, there were so many weaknesses on both sides that I was not confident of any assessment. At the same time, the existence of those weaknesses meant that the value of sente was high, and that favored Black.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Positional judgement exercises

Post by Bill Spight »

How about another Jowa special? :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Jowa (W) vs. Hattori Rittetsu, move 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . X . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . X . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Move 48, 1 Black prisoner, 1 White prisoner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . X . O X O X O . O |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . O X O X X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X O . O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . X . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Move 102, 2 Black prisoners, 1 White prisoner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . X . O X O X O . O |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . O X O X X O . |
$$ | . . X . X X . . . X X O O O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X O X . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . X , O . X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . X . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Final board:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 354 moves, White wins by 11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . X X X X X O . |
$$ | X . X O . O X . . . O X O X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . . . X X O X O X O . O |
$$ | X X O O O X O X X , . X O X O X X O O |
$$ | . X X X X X . . O X X O O O O X . X O |
$$ | O O O O O O X . O O O X X O O O X X X |
$$ | . O X X X O X . X . O O X X O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O X O X . X O . O O X . O X X X |
$$ | . O O X X X O O O . O O X . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . O O O O X . O . O X X O O X X . |
$$ | O O . . . O O . X O O X X . X O O X X |
$$ | . O O O . . O O O X X X X X O O O O X |
$$ | . O X X O . O . . O X O X . X O . X X |
$$ | . O . O . . . . O O O . O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . O . O O . . . O . O O O O O O X X |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . O O O X X X X O X X |
$$ | . X X X O O . . . O . O O O O X O O O |
$$ | O . X O O O O O . . . O . O X X X X X |
$$ | . X . X O . . O O . . . . O X . O X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Wow!


Game record:

The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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