Starcraft II

[Stable]

I've just ordered SC2... my girlfriend is worried that I'm going to disappear.

[Solomon]

Watching the GSL:WC, White-Ra gave me some hope in the state of PvP and that maybe, just maybe, in the distant future we may see PvPs that go beyond 1 base, past the 4-gate...


...maybe.


Also, season 2 just rolled in...I snapped this screenshot after my placement match because, as I had predicted, it didn't last very long - http://i.imgur.com/c1p5s.jpg

[MountainGo]

Watching the GSL:WC, White-Ra gave me some hope in the state of PvP and that maybe, just maybe, in the distant future we may see PvPs that go beyond 1 base, past the 4-gate...


...maybe.


Also, season 2 just rolled in...I snapped this screenshot after my placement match because, as I had predicted, it didn't last very long - http://i.imgur.com/c1p5s.jpg

Yeah, that WhiteRa vs MC game gave me several heart attacks, especially when he failed to split the Zealots apart with that forcefield on his main ramp and a little later when his Immortal got stuck on some of the aforementioned Zealots. I love that he did the Zealot drop; I've been experimenting with that recently. Having an observer can help you find vulnerable places to drop, and it can be even deadlier sometimes if you bring along a Sentry to block the workers' escape. (Another tip: if they come in with just a couple Stalkers or something minor, either target individual workers or use Hold Position on your Zealots to make sure they don't start running toward the enemy's guys.)

As for season 2, I got placed into Diamond again even though I ended last season with 3550 points. Disappointing, but I guess it will make it even sweeter when I do get promoted. And speaking of points, I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around how the better players are going to have higher points this season, since everyone starts even at 0 but with their old MMR.

[yoyoma]

As for season 2, I got placed into Diamond again even though I ended last season with 3550 points. Disappointing, but I guess it will make it even sweeter when I do get promoted. And speaking of points, I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around how the better players are going to have higher points this season, since everyone starts even at 0 but with their old MMR.

The rating system moves your adjusted points (Ladder points - Used Bonus pool) to your MMR. At the beginning of new ladders most people will gain more with wins than they lose for losses. Players will low MMRs will level off earlier than those with high MMRs.

[fwiffo]

I like how JP McDaniel described the White-Ra game on twitter:

God damn watching White-Ra VOD from last night and it makes me just want to buy that guy a car. He's so awesome! I MISS YOU WHITERAAAAAAAAAA

I count myself an MC fan, over-the-top-campy-cocky attitude included, but seeing him broken by White-Ra was pretty great.

[Tooveli]

Re:GSLWC

I wasn't really a big fan of WhiteRa until the MC game and then the first half of the July game. Can someone explain what happened in the July game? I saw WhiteRa hold the bust pretty convincingly and thought he was ahead and fully expected him to be able to win. Two minutes later he has a somewhat pathetic attack and has to gg. I'm guessing he was actually behind (or at least thought he was) after holding off the bust even though he seemed to be dealing with it pretty well. Would have been amazing if he managed to go on a GSL finalists killing spree.

[yoyoma]

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/genbp/i_have_serious_concerns_about_what_is_happening/

Oh man I need to start planning my strategy for when the "L19 SC2" tournament series I run makes it big time and I decide to cash out and start a new venture.

[MountainGo]

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/genbp/i_have_serious_concerns_about_what_is_happening/

Oh man I need to start planning my strategy for when the "L19 SC2" tournament series I run makes it big time and I decide to cash out and start a new venture.

Looks like you should change the name right now from the "L19 SC2" tournament to the "Definitely-not-in-any-way-whatsoever-related-to-L19 SC2" tournament.

[Chew Terr]

Anybody else coming to MLG Dallas?

[Solomon]

Anybody else coming to MLG Dallas?

Time said he was going, I'd suspect yoyoma is also going because he lives close by I think. As much as I'd like to go, Dallas is quite a ways .

[Jedo]

Haven't checked in on this thread or played SC2 in a while, and I got to thinking about comparisons between go and sc. A friend of mine never played broodwar and started playing sc2 around march/april of last year. Now he's in master league, which made me wonder, what's the equivalent of shodan in sc2? Do you think a comparable rating would mean being in the 70th percentile of SC players like it goes in go (I think) or is the comparable rank instead one that takes the same amount of time to achieve?

[Solomon]

Haven't checked in on this thread or played SC2 in a while, and I got to thinking about comparisons between go and sc. A friend of mine never played broodwar and started playing sc2 around march/april of last year. Now he's in master league, which made me wonder, what's the equivalent of shodan in sc2? Do you think a comparable rating would mean being in the 70th percentile of SC players like it goes in go (I think) or is the comparable rank instead one that takes the same amount of time to achieve?

A tempting answer is to say that Master league is equivalent to shodan, but it took a LOT more effort for me to reach shodan (KGS) than to reach Master. However, I've seen people play hundreds and hundreds of games (not portrait farming) and still be < Gold, so for some maybe it is just as, if not more difficult than reaching shodan...depends on the person. I also have some background playing WC3 which helped me get a boost (e.g., hotkey management, microing units in skirmishes, etc.), but not much as I had quit that game many years ago. Still, I feel league/ladder rankings aren't as strong an indicator of skill as a Go rating with the specifics (e.g., server, association, country, etc.). The volatility of SC2 compared to Go is a factor, and I've played some Master players who were downright terrible and only got there by cheesing.

However, to put Grand Master as the same level as shodan is perhaps a bit too strict, so ultimately I guess I'd say Master league is roughly shodan. Perhaps over time Master league will get harder to stay in and saying it is the same level as shodan will be more appropriate.

[yoyoma]

Anybody else coming to MLG Dallas?

Time said he was going, I'd suspect yoyoma is also going because he lives close by I think. As much as I'd like to go, Dallas is quite a ways .

I'll be carpooling up with sockfolder and I've made plans to meet up with Chew in Dallas.

[yoyoma]

Quoting myself, added in Masters:

For my love of statistics and rating systems I made this table comparing SC2 leagues to KGS and USCF (US Chess) ratings.

Code: Select all

League   Range      KGS     USCF
Bronze    0-20%   30k-11k  0-1000
Silver   20-40%   11k-7k   1000-1300
Gold     40-60%    7k-4k   1300-1600
Platinum 60-80%    4k-1k   1600-1800
Diamond  80-98%    1k-5d   1800-2250
Masters  98-100%   5d-9d   2250+

I took the histogram of KGS and UCSF ratings from here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?RatingHistogramComparisons And applied it to the assumed 20% split of leagues in SC2.

[MountainGo]

Quoting myself, added in Masters:

For my love of statistics and rating systems I made this table comparing SC2 leagues to KGS and USCF (US Chess) ratings.

Code: Select all

League   Range      KGS     USCF
Bronze    0-20%   30k-11k  0-1000
Silver   20-40%   11k-7k   1000-1300
Gold     40-60%    7k-4k   1300-1600
Platinum 60-80%    4k-1k   1600-1800
Diamond  80-98%    1k-5d   1800-2250
Masters  98-100%   5d-9d   2250+

I took the histogram of KGS and UCSF ratings from here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?RatingHistogramComparisons And applied it to the assumed 20% split of leagues in SC2.

Yeah, this is a fun question that I've thought about in the past myself. My inclination is to draw a parallel between levels that are equally difficult to reach, rather than looking at player percentages. In general I think the average KGS player is going to be better at go than the average active Battle.Net player is good at SC2 because go is more of a hardcore gamer's game (ancient; no pretty explosions) with a strong culture of study and improvement.

I stopped playing go after about eight months if I recall (still currently doing problems and planning on returning eventually), so I'm nearing about that same time with SC2 now (played only since release, 7/27). I ended as a KGS 4/5-kyu, and I'm currently in very high Diamond. So that would make shodan about mid-Masters from my perspective.

I once heard (I think from Shygost, but he may have been repeating it from elsewhere) that shodan can be defined as the level at which you've learned how to play. I've always enjoyed that saying and found it to be rather accurate. Getting to shodan means you understand every aspect of the game--you know all the common tesujis and L&D patterns, all the fuseki and yose principles, how to attack, how to run, how to make and use thickness, how to choose josekis, etc. You may not be particularly expert at all those things, but you understand them and apply them to every game. So climbing the dan ranks is less about discovering new things and more about refining your skills. So an SC2 "shodan" should understand all the aspects of the game--how to macro well, how to obtain and interpret information via scouting, what units and strategies counter what, abusing timings, adjusting to the map, knowing when to expand and when to tech, etc. I can say for sure that I don't understand all of that yet, but I'm getting rather close. One thing I've noticed about even the Masters players I meet on the ladder is that they usually make some decision that I believe to be fundamentally wrong, such as attacking when they're ahead on economy and just need to defend.

Then again, the game is new, so in some ways none of us really knows how to play. I think Araban hit the nail on the head with his post. As time goes on and the most solid strategies become more well known, entry into Masters will shift toward that "shodan" type of player.