Catching Scent of Victory by O Rissei

[Kirby]

...Some people have justified piracy (or photocopying) of go books simply by arguing a book is out of print, arrogating a right to themselves they haven't got.
...

I would argue that the rights that someone has depends entirely on the law. If it's not against the law for me to photocopy a book, then I'd say I have the right to do it. In this particular case, such actions may very well be against the law. But it's only because of this that I'd think that I don't have the right to do something like this.

[pwaldron]

No, the point is is that it is not the same effort. People who have tried so far have found that the amount of work required for e-books is much, much higher. I agree that on paper (as it were) it shouldn't be much different, but the reality is that it is very different, which means there is a lot of work in redesigning and rewriting. This has largely to do with the way variations and current readers work in sgf, and the fact that conventionally written text or pointers to variations disappear at crucial moments.

I'll second this claim. I had the opportunity to lay out some go material in both an electronic and printed forms, and the printed version took much less time. While having a lesson/game/article helps a little in converting to another form, it doesn't cut the time down nearly as much as you might think.

[judicata]

Just two small points:

One reason I like paper books and other hard media is because of the resale market; I'm willing to pay more for something I can later sell. So the author/publisher/whoever is compensated for the resale value. Cars present another example, where consumers will pay more for a care with better resale value.

There's a balance here; no one should be asked to work out of the goodness of his/her heart, or out of some greater sense of duty to do so, at the same time no one is obligated to buy something out of charity. We'd get fewer good books otherwise. Of course, communists and some socialists would disagree.

Regarding out of print books, one benefit I see to e-books is that they are far less likely to become out of print (the cost of continuing distribution must be smaller than printing another run). And perhaps the e-format may increase the possibility of OOP books becoming legitimately available (i.e. by permission of the rights owner). Even if a rare out of print book is scanned in PDF, even without reformatting, it is better than nothing (and worth paying for, depending on the book).

[imabuddha]

imabuddha: I suppose we are destined to remain far apart since you obviously have some secret idea you want to serve but not disclose, but we can perhaps close the gap with a little more attention to detail.

… snip …

Secondly, I did not say preparation of e-books was harder than paper. I specifically said it was preparation of go e-books that was harder. If you have experience of inputting long go texts and diagrams into dynamic e-form and have found that easy, then you will have discovered a holy grail, and quite a few people would like to take a sip from it. We are not talking about cut and paste or Photoshop and Latex here. We are talking about major rewriting of text so that it makes sense with what you see elsewhere on the screen.

Yes, the conversion of Go Review to pdf served a purpose. But what's the lesson? It was done with permission, so it has no relevance to an OOP book where permission is withheld (for a variety of possible reasons). Also, I don't think it has set the go book market alight or increased the number of players (unlike some paper books). I am not opposed to it - I got a free copy as a contributor - but I have never looked at it, preferring to read though the paper copies.

I am working on something with several others that hasn't been formally announced yet. I don't have a firm date when it will debut, but I'm confident it will happen within a few months. Sorry to appear coy.

Regarding the Go Review & Go World pdfs, it's great you have the paper copies. Most people don't, thus the availability in electronic form is a wonderful thing.

I do have experience inputting long go texts and diagrams into "dynamic e-form", and I don't generally find it hard. The tools & methods I'm using are perhaps not widespread yet, but they're not exotic. It does require some time to do, but I doubt that it takes any longer than the preparation required for a traditional book. As a very rough guide I'll say that it takes me about a week of calendar time to convert an "average" go book. The actual number of hours required varies considerably depending on the kind of book (game commentary, instruction, problem), the number of diagrams, and whether either the text or diagrams are available in an electronic format. (recent paper books have text & diagrams available in formats like .doc & .sgf)

I'm not sure it's a "holy grail", but I do hope that it will: enable more people to access more go books, provide a more engaging way to study the material, and provide the financial incentive for authors & publishers to make more new & old material available worldwide.

[jts]

I would be very annoyed if one of my own OOP books appeared as a pirated version.

...arrrrgh you under the impression that none of your books have been pirated? Or is it just the pirating of OOP books that you fear?

[John Fairbairn]

...arrrrgh you under the impression that none of your books have been pirated? Or is it just the pirating of OOP books that you fear?

There are books that have my name on them but where I sold the rights so I have no immediate interest. I know some of them have appeared in places they shouldn't have.

I have no illusions about the others, though. Some of my paper books have also been pirated in paper form, so it's not just about the internet. Ultimately it's up to go players in general to decide whether they want to form enough of a protective cordon to encourage more books to appear.

[hyperpape]

You also note there are "virtually no advertising outlets". I assert that soon there will be a new outlet, with the potential to reach a very large (and growing) market. (the proof for this claim will come within a few months)

You have good ideas, but you haven't factored in the impact of the projects I'm working on. Obviously I can't talk about the details, but the proof that my projects will eclipse yours is forthcoming.

[imabuddha]

You have good ideas, but you haven't factored in the impact of the projects I'm working on. Obviously I can't talk about the details, but the proof that my projects will eclipse yours is forthcoming.

I look forward to seeing them!

[Mivo]

Ultimately it's up to go players in general to decide whether they want to form enough of a protective cordon to encourage more books to appear.

It's not so one-sided, unfortunately. Go books are relatively expensive, and the number of English titles seems to increase lately. At the current prices, I wonder if this doesn't mostly "milks" the existing buyer base, collectors more than others, rather than actually increasing the market.

Take you "Kamakura" for example. It's a wonderful book, but -- looking at Hebsacker, the primary German Go vendor -- it retails for 33 Euro. It's an excellent piece of writing and I bought it, but I did so partly to support original English go literature, not because I feel the price is all right. A little while ago I was shopping for a book gift for a friend. I went with an Asian 18 Euro book instead of Kamakura. Now, had it been 20 Euro, I would have picked it up for a total of 40 Euro (their copy and mine). The slightly higher revenue aside, this would have been an additional potential customer who might have ended up buying other books from Kamakura's author.

There's a reason why certain companies sell items below costs.

[daal]

Go books are relatively expensive...

Relative to what? In your example, Kamakura vs. an Asian go book, you are comparing the prices of go books, so yes, some are more expensive than others. But to say that go books are generally more expensive than other books...how can you determine this? Plenty of books cost 33 Euros. The price depends on lots of things such as content and demand, but I don't think go books are too expensive; I think the problem is that we want too many of them.

[Mivo]

But to say that go books are generally more expensive than other books...how can you determine this?

Go books are relatively expensive compared to novels and even specialist computer literature (content/material/price ratio). They are also expensive compared to most philosophical books I have bought. Even a small print run, small audience book like "The Guodian Laozi -- Proceedings of the International Conference in Dartmouth College" in roughly the same format (and of similar material) as the more expensive go books cost me 13 Euro a couple years back (I find it strangely comparable to Go books).

People have budgets for entertainment and hobbies. The implied complaint was that go books don't sell enough copies and that, in addition, they are pirated. If books were cheaper, more copies would sell, not only of a specific title, but of a larger number of different titles. I'd still spend x Euro per month on go books, but it would go to more authors and more publishers. The same money would feed more mouths, rather than just one. There are also undoubtedly people who would buy books that currently simply can't afford them or are unwilling to pay the prices asked. They will still get the books if they really want, but not necessarily by legal means. Once someone gets used to this (it does violate most people's ethics), they become unlikely to buy any go books in the future. The first time is the hardest.

If you want to sell more go books, you have to increase the size of the market, and one way to do this is by lowering the prices for each book. Right now we have the situation that the number of buyers seems stagnant or even decreasing, but more English titles are published. Where is this going to lead? And most new players who could be potential buyers are likely to be students with very tight budgets and who embrace modern technology because they grew up with it (who are more open to ebooks and familiar with the means of acquisition).

[kivi]

Secondly, I did not say preparation of e-books was harder than paper. I specifically said it was preparation of go e-books that was harder. If you have experience of inputting long go texts and diagrams into dynamic e-form and have found that easy, then you will have discovered a holy grail, and quite a few people would like to take a sip from it. We are not talking about cut and paste or Photoshop and Latex here. We are talking about major rewriting of text so that it makes sense with what you see elsewhere on the screen.

I don't understand this. Is it a Kindle specific thing?

Ideally you would not even need to copy-paste text, and there are tools for sgf-to-whatever conversion. And text can stay same, as long as you keep the layout of the original book.

Is there a book you would consider releasing as an e-book, but not doing because you find the conversion too much time consuming? And by e-book I don't mean Kindle exclusively, but any electronic format.

[hyperpape]

@Mivo Are you're buying philosophical classics that enjoy a reputation outside of philosophy? Contemporary works of academic philosophy are typically quite expensive. Why? In part because the market is tiny, just like with go books. Thus, they cannot make up the fixed costs of printing, editing, etc, with volume.

Consider Anscombe's Intention, widely considered a classic of twentieth century philosophy. It's a tiny tiny book and retails for $20. Some monographs in logic can't be had for less than $100, and not because they're big hefty books.

@kivi Reread John's comments. You have a book with diagrams, that's laid out for a certain size page. It is resized for a different sized page on the kindle or other e-book readers. The diagrams often have to be redone or split into pieces, the text may have to be moved.

[kivi]

^ As I said, just keep the layout of the original book.

If kindle is not allowing having your own page dimensions and layout, use another format instead.

[ethanb]

I like Amazon for their MP3 albums (no DRM, lots of smaller artists supported) but will never ever ever buy a Kindle due to the fact that they can take your purchases away at any time (and I find it deliciously ironic that the first book to be removed after purchase from peoples' Kindles was 1984 by George Orwell.)

Plus I prefer that trees suffer for my pleasure (not really, I just like the feel of a book in my hands, as well as its ease of reading in various lighting conditions.)