Sneak Peek

[rubin427]

A feature I would really appreciate is the ability to see a list of games that match the current position.

so, for example, this position, was reached eight times. But which eight games?

If I could click and get a list of games as identified by [black player], [white player], and [date], then that would be very useful to me.

The desire to have a list like this lead me to set up kombilo on my computer, so I can generate them while searching against my copy of Go Games on Disk. But having the list on the site itself would still be useful.

[daniel_the_smith]

I intend to do something like that eventually.

[Joaz Banbeck]

Suggestion: move the 'back' and 'forward' arrows to the top of the board.

Currently, the joseki show up in the top left and the arrows at the bottom. If I am using my cell phone, I have to scroll down, click the arrow, and scroll up. I'd like to be able to study joseki here and there when I am waiting someplace ( sadly, my profession has many stupid delays ) but I spend more time scrolling than I do studying. Not only is the time lost, but concentration is interrupted by the incessant scrolling.

[daniel_the_smith]

Suggestion: move the 'back' and 'forward' arrows to the top of the board.

Currently, the joseki show up in the top left and the arrows at the bottom. If I am using my cell phone, I have to scroll down, click the arrow, and scroll up. I'd like to be able to study joseki here and there when I am waiting someplace ( sadly, my profession has many stupid delays ) but I spend more time scrolling than I do studying. Not only is the time lost, but concentration is interrupted by the incessant scrolling.

Good point; actually I intend to make a special layout for mobile devices.

[daal]

A feature I would really appreciate is the ability to see a list of games that match the current position.

so, for example, this position, was reached eight times. But which eight games?

If I could click and get a list of games as identified by [black player], [white player], and [date], then that would be very useful to me.

The desire to have a list like this lead me to set up kombilo on my computer, so I can generate them while searching against my copy of Go Games on Disk. But having the list on the site itself would still be useful.

Since dailyjoseki emphasizes whole board context, I'd like to suggest that the way that this is done by SmartGo & MasterGo is worth emulating. Both programs rotate the results of the joseki match to keep the joseki in the same orientation, which allows you to compare the board positions in which the joseki was used.

[daniel_the_smith]

Since dailyjoseki emphasizes whole board context, I'd like to suggest that the way that this is done by SmartGo & MasterGo is worth emulating. Both programs rotate the results of the joseki match to keep the joseki in the same orientation, which allows you to compare the board positions in which the joseki was used.

Haven't seen either of those programs, but I already have (I think) something even better than that planned...

[daniel_the_smith]

I enabled registration. Consider this the start of "public" beta.

[lorill]

ahem:

function Command(cmdPath, data) { $.ajax( { url: "http://dailyjoseki.com/cmd/emailed/" + cmdPath, data: data, dataType: 'text', type: 'post', success: function (UpdateScript) {/*alert(UpdateScript);*/eval(UpdateScript)}, error: function (XMLHttpRequest, textStatus, errorThrown) {window.location.reload()} }); }

is displayed right after registering. I'm not sure yet if i'll get a mail or not.

Edit: the mail was in the spam folder, so that's ok. Still, it's strange to see some js in the page.

[daniel_the_smith]

Thanks for the report, fixed now.

...and that missing " I found explained a lot of mysteries I "fixed" last night.

[daniel_the_smith]

A common request was:

I don't remember if this has been said before or not, but it would be nice if clicking on a stone took you back to the position when that stone was played. Definitely not an urgent thing to do or anything, it'd just be a nice feature.

I just published an update which includes this and a few other things, enjoy...

[hyperpape]

I've finally signed up for the public beta, and I'm confused. I make no claims that it's anyone's fault but my own. I added one position to the queue and hit study.

$$c This is the joskei I entered.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c This is the joskei I entered.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

$$c This is the position that it gives when I go to study.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c This is the position that it gives when I go to study.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After playing the pincer, there seem to be a lot of choices available.

$$c Partial continuation.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . 4 B 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Partial continuation.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . 4 B 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In particular, move doesn't seem forced, and I'm left wondering if I'm just supposed to guess in positions like this.

Looking at my question, I don't actually see any way the website is doing something wrong, but I just end up feeling confused. Am I using the website right? Do I need to change how I select joseki for study?

P.S. When you finish a variation, the position automatically shifts to the next one. I see why you do that, but it prevents you from looking at the completed joseki and thinking about the board position.

[daniel_the_smith]

I've finally signed up for the public beta, and I'm confused. I make no claims that it's anyone's fault but my own. I added one position to the queue and hit study.

...

In particular, move doesn't seem forced, and I'm left wondering if I'm just supposed to guess in positions like this.

Looking at my question, I don't actually see any way the website is doing something wrong, but I just end up feeling confused. Am I using the website right? Do I need to change how I select joseki for study?

P.S. When you finish a variation, the position automatically shifts to the next one. I see why you do that, but it prevents you from looking at the completed joseki and thinking about the board position.

Thanks for trying it, I really appreciate the feedback. I definitely need to write some stuff explaining how it works!

For now, here's a few bullet points.

* When you add a joseki from the select page, it will try to split out major variations into separate groups for your queue. You'll start off studying the first position from each group. Every two days (if you continue using the system) it will add an additional position from each group.

* In each group, it adds sub variations so that you won't get 15 examples of the same joseki all in a row. It bases things off of frequency, which means if pros really like to play something complicated in the position, you'll get complicated tests. I'm considering adding something to rate joseki by simplicity and offer to teach them in that order, but that is still in the "thinking" stage.

* If you're not sure what you want to learn, put in a position with few stones (like the position you showed). If you want to learn something specific, put in the specific thing, it will tell you how many example "test" positions contain it.

* Test positions always come from a game in which a pro played into the position you entered. They may get to that position with a move order other than the one you specified.

* Test positions have two purposes: 1) The first time you see it, it's a "guess the next pro move" whole board problem. 2) The rest of the times you see it, it's also memory problem. You always replay the joseki in the context of a whole board position where a pro actually played it, so you can learn when it is appropriate as well as what the moves are.

* You get three chances for each individual move, so don't be afraid to guess; the system will tell you what the move was after the third incorrect guess.

* If you make three wrong guesses for three separate moves, the system figures you don't know the joseki at all and will show you the rest of it. If this happens, you'll get a chance to try it again at some later point in the session.

* My usage seems to indicate that the above two points are enough to help you remember the joseki even in positions lacking external clues.

* After correctly getting through an entire joseki, it will ask you how easy it was. Your answer determines how soon you'll see it again (similar to Anki or SuperMemo, etcetera). When you see this screen, the left side will have two links, one to adjust the test (make it longer or shorter, and/or start earlier or later) and one to remove it entirely.

* The server collects (anonymous, of course) statistics on each joseki-- if enough people use the system, I will be able to both rate the average difficulty for each one and optimize the timing algorithm, so you'll learn the same amount but take fewer tests.

So, I hope that helps, please ask for clarification if something above needs it. Any confusion you may feel is entirely my own fault for not putting explanations anywhere!

[daal]

Up till now, I had only used "browse," but today I registered and ended up reaching my daily limit in about 5 minutes before figuring out how to organize what I want to study. Well, tomorrow's another day, I guess.

[daniel_the_smith]

Up till now, I had only used "browse," but today I registered and ended up reaching my daily limit in about 5 minutes before figuring out how to organize what I want to study. Well, tomorrow's another day, I guess.

Sorry! I made sure to err on the side of "too restrictive" because if I relax the limits later everyone will be happy but if I tighten them I will be a big villain... It's supposed to be a *little* annoying because I'd like this project to stop costing me money at some point in the future, but if everyone thinks it's too short, I could change it.

Actually, maybe I shouldn't limit the tests at all on the first day you sign up. Yeah, I like that idea.

[jts]

Up till now, I had only used "browse," but today I registered and ended up reaching my daily limit in about 5 minutes before figuring out how to organize what I want to study. Well, tomorrow's another day, I guess.

Sorry! I made sure to err on the side of "too restrictive" because if I relax the limits later everyone will be happy but if I tighten them I will be a big villain... It's supposed to be a *little* annoying because I'd like this project to stop costing me money at some point in the future, but if everyone thinks it's too short, I could change it.

Actually, maybe I shouldn't limit the tests at all on the first day you sign up. Yeah, I like that idea.

Yes, I signed up today and was confused by that too. From reading the description I thought that I would choose 5 patterns that I wanted to see variations sprouting from, so I picked 4-4, low approach as my first, 4-4, high approach as my second... and then it told me that it was full. Are you supposed to put in the entire joseki that you want to be tested on?

Other things that you could tweak:

*i* On the very last move, the board jumps directly to "difficulty" without giving you a chance to see what the last move was.

*ii* The program will jump over twenty moves in another part of the board, say "white to move in upper left", and then once you find that move, jump over another thirty moves, ask you to find a move "on the right side", which actually means in the center... I really like the idea of learning the big follow-ups to a joseki while you learn the joseki, but I'd like to see two changes: (i) presumably you can make it so that move "X" only gets shown as a follow-up if it appears as the next big move in some percentage of the games (to get rid of things like the random black stone that spills into the upper right from the lower left on move 70), and (ii) personally I would learn more if twenty intervening moves were shown as a quick animated sequence, rather suddenly popping onto the board.

*ii* From the first five or six joseki I played through, it seems like the same joseki always shows up in the context of exactly the same game. From your description of how this works (i.e., the first joseki I see is the most commonly played, second is second most common), there should be hundreds of games where the joseki appeared, no? Would it be inordinately difficult for the program to call up a different board configuration each time it wants to test you on a given joseki?

I hope this doesn't seem like whining! Just suggestions from a first-time user. I've always thought the graphic design on Daily Joseki is (mostly) amazing, btw - did you do it yourself?