Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure
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NousAutres
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Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure
In the last game I played on Tygem, my opponent (Black) opened on 5-4 and on move 3 enclosed at 3-5. What is the weakness of such a high enclosure? What are the viable approach moves? I found myself largely without a convincing response. (I tried san-san, but didn't really work with it too much.)
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Bill Spight
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Re: Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure
This approach is usual. Normally
has some support. is also a common approach to this enclosure. 
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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NousAutres
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Re: Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure
Okay, the open skirt makes sense but what's the disadvantage to black playing at a or b and taking a huge chunk of corner?
The approach at seems like a thank-you move to me. I might have to play out some variations on my goban.
The approach at
seems like a thank-you move to me. I might have to play out some variations on my goban.-
Bill Spight
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Re: Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
NousAutres
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Re: Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure
Okay. If black descends at 2 to seize the corner, I think this white peep at 3 works.
If black blocks at a, white b has a pretty good shot at reducing the corner. If black blocks at b, I think white has just enough room to try and make life inside.
EDIT:
This, in particular, is how White should be able to make life I think.
Once this shape is established, White should be okay (though I'm sure I haven't hacked through every conceivable response).
That's one variation, but I'm pretty sure White can live however black responds.
If black blocks at a, white b has a pretty good shot at reducing the corner. If black blocks at b, I think white has just enough room to try and make life inside.
EDIT:
This, in particular, is how White should be able to make life I think.
Once this shape is established, White should be okay (though I'm sure I haven't hacked through every conceivable response).
That's one variation, but I'm pretty sure White can live however black responds.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
topazg
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Bill Spight
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Re: Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure
Here is a game with not one, but two such enclosures.
[sgf-full](;SZ[19]FF[3]
PW[Nakano Chitoku]
PB[Sato Shunsaku]
DT[1791-08-31 (Kansei 3 VIII 3)]
KM[0]
RE[W+6]
US[GoGoD95]
;B[cp];W[po];B[qe];W[od];B[pc];W[oc];B[pb];W[ed];B[jc];W[hc];B[pf];W[lc]
;B[qk];W[oq];B[eq];W[ce];B[cj];W[pj];B[qj];W[ph];B[ng];W[qi];B[oi];W[pi]
;B[qn];W[qo];B[ro];W[pn];B[rn];W[rp];B[rq];W[sp];B[pm];W[qm];B[rm];W[om]
;B[pl];W[ol];B[cc];W[pk];B[ql];W[of];B[og];W[pg];B[ob];W[oe];B[nc];W[me]
;B[kg];W[qd];B[rd];W[qf];B[re];W[pe];B[pq];W[qq];B[qr];W[qp];B[or];W[nq]
;B[nr];W[mq];B[mr];W[lq];B[rr];W[ki];B[li];W[lj];B[lh];W[eo];B[fp];W[dp]
;B[dq];W[co];B[bp];W[gn];B[ho];W[cl];B[cg];W[cd];B[ej];W[hn];B[ke];W[io]
;B[db];W[dc];B[bb];W[eb];B[fc];W[da];B[ca];W[cb];B[fm];W[ek];B[fk];W[el]
;B[fl];W[fj];B[ei];W[bj];B[bi];W[ck];B[dj];W[fo];B[gj];W[bc];B[ip];W[jp]
;B[dn];W[cn];B[hp];W[in];B[kj];W[jf];B[le];W[ii];B[hi];W[jj];B[hb];W[nb]
;B[mb];W[mc];B[na];W[gb];B[hd];W[gc];B[gd];W[ic];B[id];W[ih];B[mj];W[lk]
;B[ib];W[fb];B[kb];W[rj];B[rk];W[rf];B[pd];W[iq];B[hq];W[ir];B[bo];W[bn]
;B[ik];W[jk];B[il];W[jl];B[bk];W[bl];B[aj];W[cq];B[bq];W[hr];B[do];W[en]
;B[ep];W[gq];B[gp];W[fr];B[kr];W[lr];B[ls];W[kq];B[hh];W[ig];B[bf];W[cs]
;B[cr];W[es];B[bs];W[mf];B[kh];W[mg];B[kf];W[mk];B[nj];W[mh];B[mi];W[lb]
;B[la];W[nd];B[nb];W[eg];B[be];W[fd];B[nk];W[nl];B[ri];W[rh];B[sj];W[oh]
;B[nh];W[nf];B[ni];W[jr];B[dm];W[em];B[ji];W[ij];B[dg];W[hk];B[hl];W[hj]
;B[fi];W[df];B[fg];W[eh];B[dh];W[ef];B[ks];W[fh];B[je];W[ge];B[gf];W[he]
;B[gh];W[ie];B[jd];W[ha];B[ia];W[kc];B[fq];W[gr];B[ds];W[er];B[ga];W[bd]
)[/sgf-full]
[sgf-full](;SZ[19]FF[3]
PW[Nakano Chitoku]
PB[Sato Shunsaku]
DT[1791-08-31 (Kansei 3 VIII 3)]
KM[0]
RE[W+6]
US[GoGoD95]
;B[cp];W[po];B[qe];W[od];B[pc];W[oc];B[pb];W[ed];B[jc];W[hc];B[pf];W[lc]
;B[qk];W[oq];B[eq];W[ce];B[cj];W[pj];B[qj];W[ph];B[ng];W[qi];B[oi];W[pi]
;B[qn];W[qo];B[ro];W[pn];B[rn];W[rp];B[rq];W[sp];B[pm];W[qm];B[rm];W[om]
;B[pl];W[ol];B[cc];W[pk];B[ql];W[of];B[og];W[pg];B[ob];W[oe];B[nc];W[me]
;B[kg];W[qd];B[rd];W[qf];B[re];W[pe];B[pq];W[qq];B[qr];W[qp];B[or];W[nq]
;B[nr];W[mq];B[mr];W[lq];B[rr];W[ki];B[li];W[lj];B[lh];W[eo];B[fp];W[dp]
;B[dq];W[co];B[bp];W[gn];B[ho];W[cl];B[cg];W[cd];B[ej];W[hn];B[ke];W[io]
;B[db];W[dc];B[bb];W[eb];B[fc];W[da];B[ca];W[cb];B[fm];W[ek];B[fk];W[el]
;B[fl];W[fj];B[ei];W[bj];B[bi];W[ck];B[dj];W[fo];B[gj];W[bc];B[ip];W[jp]
;B[dn];W[cn];B[hp];W[in];B[kj];W[jf];B[le];W[ii];B[hi];W[jj];B[hb];W[nb]
;B[mb];W[mc];B[na];W[gb];B[hd];W[gc];B[gd];W[ic];B[id];W[ih];B[mj];W[lk]
;B[ib];W[fb];B[kb];W[rj];B[rk];W[rf];B[pd];W[iq];B[hq];W[ir];B[bo];W[bn]
;B[ik];W[jk];B[il];W[jl];B[bk];W[bl];B[aj];W[cq];B[bq];W[hr];B[do];W[en]
;B[ep];W[gq];B[gp];W[fr];B[kr];W[lr];B[ls];W[kq];B[hh];W[ig];B[bf];W[cs]
;B[cr];W[es];B[bs];W[mf];B[kh];W[mg];B[kf];W[mk];B[nj];W[mh];B[mi];W[lb]
;B[la];W[nd];B[nb];W[eg];B[be];W[fd];B[nk];W[nl];B[ri];W[rh];B[sj];W[oh]
;B[nh];W[nf];B[ni];W[jr];B[dm];W[em];B[ji];W[ij];B[dg];W[hk];B[hl];W[hj]
;B[fi];W[df];B[fg];W[eh];B[dh];W[ef];B[ks];W[fh];B[je];W[ge];B[gf];W[he]
;B[gh];W[ie];B[jd];W[ha];B[ia];W[kc];B[fq];W[gr];B[ds];W[er];B[ga];W[bd]
)[/sgf-full]
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
NousAutres
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Bill Spight
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Re: Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure
[sgf-full](;AP[GOWrite:2.2.21]CA[ISO8859-1]ST[2]FF[4]SZ[19]GM[1]PM[2]GN[ ]PW[ ]AB[ed][ce]PB[ ]FG[259:]
;W[gc]
;B[eb]
;W[dc]
;B[ec]
;W[cd]
;B[bd]
;W[bc]
(
;B[be]
(
;W[db]
;B[dd]
;W[ba]
;B[cc]
;W[cb]
;B[ab]
;W[ac]
;B[da]
)
(
;W[dd]
;B[de]
;W[db]
;B[cb]
(
;W[ca]
;B[ba]
;W[da]
;B[ea]
;W[cc]
;B[bb]
)
(
;W[da]
(
;B[bb]
;W[ab]
;B[cc]
)
)
)
)
(
;B[dd]
;W[cc]
;B[be]
)
)[/sgf-full]
Edit: Added a couple of variations.
;W[gc]
;B[eb]
;W[dc]
;B[ec]
;W[cd]
;B[bd]
;W[bc]
(
;B[be]
(
;W[db]
;B[dd]
;W[ba]
;B[cc]
;W[cb]
;B[ab]
;W[ac]
;B[da]
)
(
;W[dd]
;B[de]
;W[db]
;B[cb]
(
;W[ca]
;B[ba]
;W[da]
;B[ea]
;W[cc]
;B[bb]
)
(
;W[da]
(
;B[bb]
;W[ab]
;B[cc]
)
)
)
)
(
;B[dd]
;W[cc]
;B[be]
)
)[/sgf-full]
Edit: Added a couple of variations.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Magicwand
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Re: Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure
NousAutres wrote:Okay. If black descends at 2 to seize the corner, I think this white peep at 3 works.
If black blocks at a, white b has a pretty good shot at reducing the corner. If black blocks at b, I think white has just enough room to try and make life inside.
EDIT:
This, in particular, is how White should be able to make life I think.
Once this shape is established, White should be okay (though I'm sure I haven't hacked through every conceivable response).
That's one variation, but I'm pretty sure White can live however black responds.
i dont see any life in below diag.
but i am sure there are aji.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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NousAutres
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Re: Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure
Thanks for the input thus far. I'll keep reading into the position a bit, though I must say that the Dan-level consensus is that White's prospects are grim.
I'm guessing the primary weakness this enclosure has compared with the usual shimari from 3-4 is simply that the one-space low approach on the open skirt begs a response, where a lower enclosure would not have that weakness.
vs.
Does this seem right?
I'm guessing the primary weakness this enclosure has compared with the usual shimari from 3-4 is simply that the one-space low approach on the open skirt begs a response, where a lower enclosure would not have that weakness.
vs.
Does this seem right?
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure
That is a large part of it. It also just has a weaker hold on the corner in general. There's more aji for white to live inside. How that aji will play out will vary a lot based on the game, but it's there. White can also just play at the position below, for instance.
Anyway, you might want to consider trying this enclosure in your games sometimes. It's certainly playable. I remember when I was around 10k I would always start off at 6-4, and though I eventually lost my love of it, I don't feel it hindered my game at all in the long run. If anything, it made things more exciting.
Anyway, you might want to consider trying this enclosure in your games sometimes. It's certainly playable. I remember when I was around 10k I would always start off at 6-4, and though I eventually lost my love of it, I don't feel it hindered my game at all in the long run. If anything, it made things more exciting.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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NousAutres
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Re: Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure
Dusk Eagle wrote:That is a large part of it. It also just has a weaker hold on the corner in general. There's more aji for white to live inside. How that aji will play out will vary a lot based on the game, but it's there. White can also just play at the position below, for instance.
Anyway, you might want to consider trying this enclosure in your games sometimes. It's certainly playable. I remember when I was around 10k I would always start off at 6-4, and though I eventually lost my love of it, I don't feel it hindered my game at all in the long run. If anything, it made things more exciting.
Yeah I'll be trying this in my next few games I think. No better way to figure out your weaknesses than by seeing an opponent exploit them!
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Magicwand
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Re: Approach to a 3-5/5-4 enclosure
in general...'a' will produce better result than 'b'
you will realize that giving your opponets points are not necessary bad for you.
if you try too hard to take points away from your opponent will usually force you to an overplay and you will lose.
there are weakness in black's shape. but where? and how do you take advantage over that weakness? that will be your homework to figure them out.
it might take few years or never.
you will realize that giving your opponets points are not necessary bad for you.
if you try too hard to take points away from your opponent will usually force you to an overplay and you will lose.
there are weakness in black's shape. but where? and how do you take advantage over that weakness? that will be your homework to figure them out.
it might take few years or never.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson