4 L&D from a game...

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jts
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4 L&D from a game...

Post by jts »

In my latest group I encountered a number of groups that triggered my "not a lot of eyespace" radar. My attempts to kill were rather clumsy, though. Does anyone think any of these are killable?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 129 - W to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . X . O B B . . . B O O . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X O O O B B B . B B O . |
$$ | . X X O . O X . X X O O O O B , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X X X X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . X . X . X . . . O . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X . O . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . X . . X . . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . , X O O . . O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O X X . X O . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . X O . . O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


All I got out of that was the option to make a gote seki. Next up: can W do anything to either group on the left side?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 169 - W to move
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . X O O X X . . . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X O O O X X X X X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . O X . X X O O O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X X X X . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . X . O X . X . X . . . O . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . O X X O X . O . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X . . . . . . . X . O X . X . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . X . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . X . . X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . , X O O O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O X X . X O . . . X O X X O |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . X O . . O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Finally, you may have noted that this group got sealed in fairly early, but it always looked to me like it had a lot of options for making eyes. This would probably have been the best time to attack it... does W have an attack? (In the game, I captured the three stones.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 203 - W to move
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . X O X X . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . O . X O O X X . . . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X O O O X X X X X X O . |
$$ | O X X O . O X . X X O O O O X O . . . |
$$ | X O O O O X X . X X X X . O O . O O . |
$$ | . X X . O X . X . X . . X O . O O B O |
$$ | . O X . O X X O X . O . O X O . B B . |
$$ | . X X O O X . O X O . . X X O B . B . |
$$ | . . X O X O X O . X O . O O B B . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . X . X O . . . O B . . . |
$$ | . X . . X . X . . . . . X . O B . B . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . X . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . X . . X . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . , X O O O . O X X . |
$$ | . X X . . O X X . X O . . . X O X X O |
$$ | O O X O O . O X . X O . . O O X X O . |
$$ | . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Thanks for your thoughts.
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: 4 L&D from a game...

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Ko?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 6 1 2 . . 4 3 . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . X . O X X . 5 . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X O O O X X X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . O X . X X O O O O X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X X X X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . X . X . X . . . O . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X . O . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . X . . X . . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . , X O O . . O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O X X . X O . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . X O . . O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't think white can get anything on either left-side group, or the mid-right group. But what happened in the lower right? In the first diagram, black is dead, but can't he get ko in the later two?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 6 1 2 . . 4 3 . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . X . O X X . 5 . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X O O O X X X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . O X . X X O O O O X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X X X X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . X . X . X . . . O . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X . O . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . X . . X . . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . , X O O . . O X X 1 |
$$ | . . X . . O X X . X O . . . X O X X O |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . X O . . O O X X O 3 |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 2 . . O |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 4 L&D from a game...

Post by topazg »

@Dusk, I read that with the top group, but :b2: @ :w5: makes it tricky, no?
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Re: 4 L&D from a game...

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Hmm, I thought I had read that variation, but I realize I made an elementary mistake. I swear I've seen an L&D that looked very similar to this on goproblems.com, and it was very tricky. I can't remember its exact shape though, so that could change everything (black's sente descent on the left also makes it way harder, perhaps impossible, to get anything).
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
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jts
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Re: 4 L&D from a game...

Post by jts »

@ Dusk Eagle - Yes, I was being sloppy with the lower right group. I couldn't remember the orthodox way to kill an L+1 (the hane! d'oh :blackeye: ) so I played that, which should have worked, but I responded poorly to T2... I think T2, S1, then T4 and Q1 are miai. Anyway, I didn't realize that I had screwed up until after the game, and I don't think he did either... he resigned when I killed the lower side.
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Abydos1
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Re: 4 L&D from a game...

Post by Abydos1 »

I think :w1: is the key, a black play there seems to live. The best I could find is this 3-step ko though. Edit: Oops, not even ko :b8: at A lives.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 9 7 8 3 . 5 6 . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . X . O X X a 1 2 X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X O O O X X X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . O X . X X O O O O X 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X X X X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . X . X . X . . . O . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X . O . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . X . . X . . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . , X O O . . O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O X X . X O . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . X O . . O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 4 L&D from a game...

Post by Magicwand »

answers:
1. no
2. no
3. no
4. no

all 4 black group have 100% life
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jts
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Re: 4 L&D from a game...

Post by jts »

Thanks for your help, everyone!
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Bill Spight
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Re: 4 L&D from a game...

Post by Bill Spight »

Make that 5. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . X . O X X . . . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X O O O X X X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . O X . X X O O O O X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X X X X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . X . X . X . . . O . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X . O . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . 5 |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . X . . X . . O . . O O 3 |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . , X O O . . O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O X X . X O . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . X O . . O O X X O 2 |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 4 . 1 . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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mitsun
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Re: 4 L&D from a game...

Post by mitsun »

Bill Spight wrote:Make that 5. :)

But now you are coupling the different problems :)
Are you sure this move is not sente against the upper group?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . X . O X X . . . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X O O O X X X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . O X . X X O O O O X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X X X X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . X . X . X . . . O . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X . O . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . O . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . X . . X . . O . . O O 3 |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . , X O O . . O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O X X . X O . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . X O . . O O X X O 2 |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Bill Spight
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Re: 4 L&D from a game...

Post by Bill Spight »

mitsun wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:Make that 5. :)

But now you are coupling the different problems :)
Are you sure this move is not sente against the upper group?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . X . O X X . . . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X O O O X X X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . O X . X X O O O O X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X X X X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . X . X . X . . . O . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X . O . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . O . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . X . . X . . O . . O O 3 |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . , X O O . . O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O X X . X O . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . X O . . O O X X O 2 |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm4 Ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . X . O X X . . . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X O O O X X X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O . O X . X X O O O O X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X X X X . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . X . . X . X . X . . . O . O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X . O . O . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X 7 X . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X 5 3 6 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O X 4 . 8 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 9 X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . O . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . X . . X . . O . . O O X |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . , X O O . . O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O X X . X O . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . X O . . O O X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Oh, yes. :w4: was my sealed move. :) I think that it threatens ko.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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