Big Brother Malkovich #4

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Simba
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4

Post by Simba »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(1) W:9(0)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Another hoshi point. This is the first time ever (I think!) that I'm playing a diagonal fuseki, but I think this is as good a time as any to learn. I'm playing this move aiming at an approach to the top left (probably the high approach since I have the hoshi stone in the bottom left now). If white chooses to make a shimari in the top left, I'll just take the other corner on the remaining hoshi point. If white kakaris my bottom left hoshi stone around C6, I think I'll tenuki and take the remaining corner. I'm comfortable enough with hoshi joseki to let him double kakari the hoshi stone in the bottom left.
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Mnemonic
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4

Post by Mnemonic »

Trigger, if approved:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(2) W:9(1)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4

Post by Violence »

Trigger, if approved:
Approved.
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Mnemonic
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4

Post by Mnemonic »

If this is the first correction then I am sorry, Violence :sad:

Other thoughts:
This is basically some Metagame analysis, so bear with me (or not, you decide :mrgreen: ):

I'm guessing there are 3 parts to a Big Brother Malkovich game.


1: Opening
The opening consists of players trading plays based mostly on intuition and experience and most of these plays are of equal value. The player with more experience or more fuseki knowledge will do slightly (ever so slightly) better on each move and might eke out a 5 or 10 point lead at the end of the opening. What this means is that the Big Brothers will almost never change an opening move by a younger brother so the younger brothers are essentially playing against themselves. This would probably also apply to endgame but since we've never seen a BB game go to endgame I can't say anything for certain.
Since I'm a self professed opening nut and have played at least 6 months longer than Simba I think we have an advantage here.

2: Reading
With reading I not only mean complex L&D sequences but also obscure joseki that no 7k could possibly know or guess. Even if I or Simba magically got 4 or 5 stones stronger the dan players could and will still out read us! The point swings to a dan correction are probably in the 20+ range so the Big Brothers will have an easy time deciding on a correction. It is also likely that if one of the Big Brothers changes a move the other Big Brother will have to respond with a correction (or risk a 20+ moku loss) This will likely still be true if one of the smaller Brothers is a lot stronger than the other (given enough strength difference to the Big Brothers)

3: Middlegame
Middlegame is basically attack and defense. The problem with this is that the point swings are not so extreme (maybe 5 moku) than if some important killing tesuji is missed. The Big Brothers will have a harder time justifying a change, especially if short on changes! Also the answer to a direction of play change is often easy so that corrections are not as easily exchanged as in the reading part.
If one younger Brother consistently outplays the other in this category the game will go south!
I'm a little bit worried. Simba has been playing since 2 months whereas I've been playing since 9. Even if you discount some slow periods I've still needed 5 months to my current strength. My goal is 5k after a year, his is shodan :shock: Also, several analysis of my games indicate that this is the weakest area of my game whereas he claims this is his strongest. :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:

My estimate of how to win Big Brother Malkovich games:
1) Mostly Younger Brothers Ability: around 20%
2) Mostly Big Brothers Ability: around 20%
3) Younger Brothers Ability + Teamwork: 60%
Conclusion: Even if the other team is stronger, if the younger brother manages to hit some key points in the middlegame and has good Teamwork with his Big Brother they will win!

Some statistics from the BB#2
Category 1: There were 2 changes made, both of them did not lead to immediate counter change by the opposing color and both of them were questioned by stronger players!
Category 2: Honestly there weren't too many changes in this category (maybe I have to search BB#1 for this, but I'm not THAT bored) 3 corrections, 2 with immediate counter corrections.
Category 3: A total of 11 corrections in this category, only one was answered by a correction!

Obviously my above statistic is highly subjective, but I hope that anyone following Malkovich games can see some similarity with my observations.

tl:dr
We're likely to win this game :mrgreen:

Edit: So tengen 4th move is a bad play :scratch:
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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topazg
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4

Post by topazg »

Approved, and our turn again :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(1) W:9(0)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Though, to be honest, I don't like diagonal games particularly, especially with 4-4s. However, we can approach the top left, and approach the lower right later, maybe something like here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(1) W:9(0)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . B . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let's play for something big :)
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Simba
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4

Post by Simba »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(3) W:9(2)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think an approach to their komoku stone is essential at this point (I remember what you were telling me about the size of each edge, and this edge has size 2.5, so is very important. At a guess, san-san probably gives a size of around 0.5 to each adjacent edge? It doesn't look very important to approach.)
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topazg
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4

Post by topazg »

Approved.

That would have been my move
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Mnemonic
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4

Post by Mnemonic »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(3) W:9(2)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Simba: we should have a convention of when to increment the counters. You seem to increment yours when you post and I seem to increment mine only after approval from my big brother. It does not really matter which way we go but it's confusing me slightly.
Let's start some fun. If I just attach underneath and play out the normal joseki then we would start seeing forms of a black moyo. It's not that that aspect scares me, but moyos require more middle game skills than fighting games (at least that’s my impression). If we turn this game into a huge mess than the resulting territorys are going to be smaller and our 33 and 34 are going to have a larger impact on the final score compared to their 44's
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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robinz
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4

Post by robinz »

Mnemonic wrote:
If we turn this game into a huge mess than the resulting territorys are going to be smaller and our 33 and 34 are going to have a larger impact on the final score compared to their 44's


@Mnemonic:

Hmm, in my experience (which is admittedly fairly limited), turning a game into a "big mess" means that it basically comes down to which side's reading is better, and something big dies on one side or the other. OK, with a dan player on each side to step in when required, I guess this is less likely to happen here (although I'm sure even high dan players misread complicated fights often enough) - but still, in a "big mess" type game then the side whose "little brother" is better able to handle it will at least pick up more points from corrections. I'd have thought that, as you seem to be playing a more territorial game while black is playing an influence-based one, taking cash and keeping things simple would be more in keeping with your strategy and offer a better chance of winning the game (even if it would be less fun ;-)).

Not a criticism of your move, at all (I'm at least 10 stones too weak to seriously be able to do that anyway). I always find pincers both fun and slightly scary (for both sides), particularly in 3-4 joseki. *gets some popcorn and sits back to watch the fireworks* :)
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Mnemonic
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4

Post by Mnemonic »

(rules question: I suspect that Violence is reading my every post. That also includes post made by observers directed at me, right?)
@robinz (+violence?)
"taking cash and keeping things simple" would result in an easy opening and a moyo midgame. I suspect I'm better in the opening and try to use that to my advantage by making it long and complicated. Moyo based midgames require invasions and reductions and other complicated stuff that would fall under my "direction of play" bullet in my last post. They would require a change by my Big Brother if I screw them up and would probably be easy to answer by the opposing teams younger Brother. This "Big Picture Midgame" is probably my weakest area and supposedly Simbas strongest so I suspect that Violence will have to change more moves compared to topazg. If I can minimize the risk of Midgame requiring a lot of "Big Picture" thinking it would be in our favor (I think :-? )

The messy midgame I'm aiming for does still have "Big Picture" stuff but it will have a lot more infighting and contact battles were I'm on the same level as Simba and a change by one Big Brother will likely require a counter change by the other.

I don’t know if this is logical or not, but I’m trying to play to my (perceived!) strengths and their (perceived!) weaknesses
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4

Post by Violence »

Approved.

I only read your comments directed at me.
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Simba
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4

Post by Simba »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(3) W:9(3)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Looked at D13 but I don't have a satisfactory answer to white playing C14 in reply. C15 seems a bit too solid/slow to separate the groups - B15 looks much better. If white peeps, I just connect and white has two weak groups, one of which will come under severe attack. I know that C17 is joseki but someone showed me when I first started playing that it gets really complicated. This variation looks a lot calmer and I'm not going to die horribly in the corner in this variation (heheh, famous last words...) :P . Also if white ends up getting an extension on the left, I have some nice yose to reduce his territory since I'm on the 2nd line now.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4

Post by topazg »

Approved

Split and fight!
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Mnemonic
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4

Post by Mnemonic »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - B:9(4) W:9(3)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 8 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sadly, this is very straight forward. We get development on both sides where black get center access and sente (other variation include us tenukiing before finishing the left side or just concentrating on the upper side) I was hoping for some complicated variation like the 33 attachment (After my horrendous misplay in the emerus game I've been studying this pincer)

btw, I thought Big Brothers can/were reading the smaller brothers posts?
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Violence
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich #4

Post by Violence »

Approved.

Yes, I'm reading the ones you post with your move, but not anything else.
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