110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

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Marcus
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Marcus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I ... don't get it. Kirby's moves are solid, I guess ... but is it really the time for defense?

In addition, playing O12 may fix one weakness, but the monkey jump is still there to reduce the right side even further. That right side is not very big ... not at all.

Let's play a nice big move, on the border of each of our areas.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by ketchup »

Marcus wrote:
I ... don't get it. Kirby's moves are solid, I guess ... but is it really the time for defense?

In addition, playing O12 may fix one weakness, but the monkey jump is still there to reduce the right side even further. That right side is not very big ... not at all.

Let's play a nice big move, on the border of each of our areas.


For kibitzers only:

If I was black I'd be sure I was losing. Even if I am optimistic about black's current points, I feel he is behind by at least 10-20 points. What are other people's counts on this?

Almost all of black's potential territory is just that. It's potential, but nothing to call definite. Nothing is what I can call real points. On the other hand, white has at least three corners which are definitely his, and a decent chunk of the side where black's influence reaches out to. I feel white has multiple invasions points at the bottom, and black is not fixing any of them with the last move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . a . X . . . X . X . b . |
$$ | . . . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Moves around a and b are what I believe white's moves of interest are next in the upcoming moves. I'd personally play at around a. I don't know why, but b also seems quite large, but doesn't seem as interesting.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

I just got back from Canada, and we lost one of my wife's IDs during our stay. I don't think I'm in a good state to post a move right now, because I was freaking out about it. It turned out to be OK, but I'm still a bit tired.

Anyway, black's move seems a little loose. I want to invade him and get points. I'm not sure about a tenuki ATM, because I feel slightly uncomfortable if black plays R7.

I don't expect to get a lot of points on the side, so it may be possible to forget about that stone and play 3-3 if he plays R7, for example... But that doesn't seem to have the "flow" that magicwand talks about.

I wonder how I can capture the flow in this position. Can I tenuki and invade him directly? I'll have to consider the repercussions of doing this, but I still feel it might be an option...

My thoughts are a little scattered right now, so that's another reason I shouldn't move right now.

Still, I feel good about this board. I am playing in a different way than I usually do, too, by the way. For example, I would normally never play Q12. I don't like defending unless I can do so by having some other objective.

I also feel I've responded calmly in some other areas, too. Still, I'm pleased with the board... I'm not used to playing this way, though, so I'll have to think of a good way to use my stones in response to his last move.

Shall I invade directly? Or shall I wait patiently?
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by cloud »

Obs only:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Kind of wondering if either player sees this move.. and if so how white plans on answering this.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Loons »

@cloud
[hide]Could you post your most-likely reading there? I was having quite a lot of trouble finding something.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 (Obvious moves)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . 4 3 1 . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O 2 O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And then I can't find anywhere to put :b5: .

Edit: I guess C14/C16 do cut off E18. (C14 E16 F15 C13 C16 B15 and then a capturing race I am too likely to miss something in)
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

After a night's rest, I kind of want to respond locally... But I don't want to eliminate the possibility of invading later. I am still thinking about this position. I think it's important for me to invade the bottom. But I also don't want to throw away my stone on the side here.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by cloud »

Loons wrote:
@cloud
[hide]Could you post your most-likely reading there? I was having quite a lot of trouble finding something.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 (Obvious moves)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . 4 3 1 . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O 2 O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And then I can't find anywhere to put :b5: .

Edit: I guess C14/C16 do cut off E18. (C14 E16 F15 C13 C16 B15 and then a capturing race I am too likely to miss something in)



I didn't read it super carefully but at the very least black has this ko:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 (Obvious moves)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 5 X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . 1 O 2 X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . 4 O X X 3 . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 (Obvious moves)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 O O 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 2 O X X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Screw it. I'm greedy.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Marcus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 1 . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Oh boy, here goes. :) I just realized that Kirby can take the final corner and have all 4 corners in this game ... let's see how this goes ...
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . O 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Maybe I am doing an overplay right now. Hopefully I don't overdo it... Yuk, yuk, yuk...
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Loons »

@Marcus
Why the top attach? I'd've been tempted to kick, myself, in light of your O4, P7 stones.
I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Aphelion »

Loons:
I don't like the kick. It doesn't feel thick. After the kick Black's k4 group still has multiple weak points and is how heavier. I don't think Black can wholeheartedly attack with that to worry about.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Loons »

@Aph
Just to be clear, this is the kick we are talking about:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 2 . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Seems to me white is the one who is heavy. White has to work hard to live or make some kind of sabaki. Maybe it's just personal preference, as I said. Do you think this is substantially worse?
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Puppycakes »

I certainly like Loon's kick better than the attachment on top. That feels like it's pretty much just asking Kirby to settle himself nice and easy. In this position, I wouldn't have even considered that. I think that black has too much influence in the area to attach and not pull off an attack.
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Magicwand
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Magicwand »

Puppycakes wrote:
I certainly like Loon's kick better than the attachment on top. That feels like it's pretty much just asking Kirby to settle himself nice and easy. In this position, I wouldn't have even considered that. I think that black has too much influence in the area to attach and not pull off an attack.

kick looks like an overplay to me.
white peep at bottom and get life in the corner or side.. and aji still remains from the kick.
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