AGA Rules vs. Japanese

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Bill Spight
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Re: AGA Rules vs. Japanese

Post by Bill Spight »

John Fairbairn wrote:
The definition of seki in Japanese rules is "Stones that are alive but possess dame."


There are problems with translation here. More literally the Japanese reference is just "stones which have dame are 'called seki groups'". Dame are earlier described as "empty points other than moku [countable points].

If you then proceed in one western legalistic tradition, where the text takes priority, you derive certain meanings from this, but add nothing (or try not to add anything). It is pure, It is elegant. You then draw inferences - but these are often startlingly different from those drawn by Japanese people.

If you approach the same text from a usual Japanese tradition where the text is just a guide and real life, expert authority or previous practice take priority, you end up drawing different inferences. Literalness is not enough.

A western person is liable to start by defining, say, four rules A, B, C and D, and drawing a logical chain that results in a game X. This game X may be a game no-one has seen before, or a game no-one likes, but if the rules A, B, C and D cannot be gainsaid, that's the way it has to be: game X or nothing (in go terms, superko or nothing).

The Japanese person is more likely to start with game Y that he knows millions of people play and love. Asked to write down rules that describe it, he will make the rules fit the final result. He may start with A, B, C and D, but when he realises they don't quite work, he will change the rules to A, B, C and E, or A*, B*, C, D, and if none of these works, he will give up and go and have a game of go. It would not normally occur to him to change game Y to X.

However, you often also get an in-between position where a Japanese person may be convinced that A, B, C and D do actually describe the game he sees, and yet a westerner tells him otherwise.

Dame is one of those in-between problems. A westerner sees dame as whatever the definition on paper is and applies it universally. A Japanese "knows" and superimposes several things onto the text. First he knows that dame ordinarly implies something useless or worthless (which, e.g. may preclude immediate understanding of a "dame fight"). As a go player he will also be previously familiar with three distinct meanings of dame, which are of long standing, which he understands thoroughly and which he superimposes on any rules texts he reads. The two main meanings he will know are dame in the sense of the worthless intersections in no-man's land between opposing territories and the separate meaning of the shared points inside a seki. He will also know a third meaning, which refers to the liberties that are filled in a capturing race. Some Japanese are aware of the different western approach, and even if they don't feel in tune with it, can sense some of the problems. For this reason, there has been a late 20th-century trend to use katsuro for the capturing race kind of liberty, but it is far from universal. (A few writers will even use the English word "liberty").

In short, when a Japanese sees "stones that are alive but possess dame" he does not necessarily see what a westerner sees.

The different Japanese approach is sometimes carelessly described as doing things back to front. Take the case of a Japanese describing go. As stated, he is apt to start with the game as it exists. The 1949 Japanese rules, therefore, which were fairly well embedded in the traditional way of doing things, start off by describing the difference between pros and amateurs, the dan rankings, the Meijin, the equipment (including precise sizes and the location of handicap points and the order of placing handicap stones), how handicaps are changed, usual komi, nigiri and much else in great detail, all before it tells you how to play. To repeat, these rules describe the game as it exists, and the writer of the 1949 rules would have believed, no doubt, that he was presenting them in a well tried and trusted format of "big picture first, gradually zooming in on the smaller details" to an audience who would probably recognise the big picture but not the details. This is sensible enough, and not a perverse Japanese tradition. It is a technique used extravagantly in old Chinese painting and poetry, but it's not even a specially Oriental tradition. You will see the same technique at the start of many Hollywood movies. There is really no good reason to describe it as back to front.

What is special about Japan's use of the technique, however, is that they often use it in legal or rules texts where we tend to believe it is inappropriate. We often prefer to define the tiny details first, and build up from there. But the Japanese are perfectly capable of realising there are different ways of doing things, and it may be said that the 1989 rules were their attempt to ape the western style of "elegance". But the result was a pig's breakfast. They probably lacked the experience but, most of all, their hearts just weren't in it. Deep down they are still much happier with 1949 style rules (and this is still the way, for example, things like personnel rules in domestic companies are drafted).

Deep down, it seems, most of us even in the west are much happier with 1949 styles rules, probably because most of us have learnt the game the "Japanese" way: rough-and-ready instructions from a friend or book first, bumping into the detailed rules later, if ever, only when an anomaly such as triple ko occurs. But even if you are not one of these happy bunnies, and you do prefer to ponder rules from the get-go (so to speak), it is wise to be extra careful before quoting Japanese statements about rules.


The Japanese 1989 rules redefined the game of go. I do not exactly know why, but I doubt that Western criticism was high on the list.

Here is my translation of the relevant parts of Article 8:

Empty points surrounded by live stones of only one side are called "eye points". Empty points other than eye points are called "dame". Live stones that have dame are called "seki stones".

The naive Japanese player might assume that "dame" here has its familiar meaning of neutral point between territories. He might then be surprised to find that the marked points in the next diagram are dame.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Dame in double ko seki
$$ --------------+
$$ . X O C W X . |
$$ . X O O X X X |
$$ . X X O O X C |
$$ . . X O . O B |
$$ . . X O O O O |
$$ . . X X X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


Of course, he is used to not counting those points as territory, but calling them dame is something new. Why are they dame? he may ask.

They are dame because the marked stones are not alive. Not alive? That idea is certainly new. Why are they not alive? Mmm, that's not so easy to explain. See Articles 7 and 9.

Well, if they are not alive, do we pick them up as prisoners after the game? No, we don't. See Article 10.

By now the naive Japanese player has probably thrown his hands up. The Japanese 1989 rules are quite clever, and they describe a game that has the same result as the traditional game nearly all of the time. The three points without capturing position is scored differently, but when does it come up. And the new seki rule has produced at least one anomalous position in pro play, although the players did not recognize it. And there are ambiguities with life and death that will not go away, although a related crisis may not happen for a long time.

I think that most Japanese players do not play by the 1989 rules, and never will.
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Re: AGA Rules vs. Japanese

Post by Bill Spight »

BTW, I have written a version of the Japanese rules at http://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules . They are not as clever as the J89 rules, but, IMO, clearer.

For comparison, here are my versions of Article 7 and Article 8.

----

Article 7. Life and Death

When play is paused according to Article 9.1, the players may agree about which stones on the board are dead, if any. If they do so, those stones are dead and all other stones on the board are alive. Dead stones are removed without further play.

Comment: This article gives human, operational definitions of life and death. I think that the way the Japanese rules attempt to define life and death generates problems and potential confusion. The original article also gives the ko rule for virtual play. That is addressed in the encore article, for clarity.

Article 8. Territory

After all dead stones, if any, have been removed, empty points that are surrounded by stones of the same player are called eye points, and any empty points that are not eye points are called neutral points. All stones that surround the same eye points belong to the same group. A group is called a seki group if it adjacent to a neutral point, or if one or more of its stones is in atari. Eye points that are surrounded by a group that is not a seki group are territory. Territory belongs to the player whose stones surround it.

Comment: The current definition is unclear. First, it distinguishes eye points from neutral points, and later distinguishes some eye points from territory in an unclear way, talking about seki stones possessing neutral points that they are not connected to. I replace the idea of seki stones with that of a seki group, and include the idea of atari, to cover double ko seki and other strange seki.

----

Now, my Article 9, for settling disputes over life and death, is more detailed than in the Japanese 1989 rules, and yields different results. I also provide for ending the game without agreement. There is no hypothetical play, everything is played out in an encore if there is a dispute. There are no dead stones left on the board during scoring. And the Three Points without Capturing position is scored as three points if it is played out in the encore. :)

To be sure, the dispute resolution procedure is unfamiliar, but disputes are very rare between experienced players, anyway. :)
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Re: AGA Rules vs. Japanese

Post by RobertJasiek »

Bill Spight wrote:The Japanese 1989 rules are quite clever


They have their stupid parts (example: logically impossible removal of dead stones from territory), their clever parts (example: generalized ishi-no-shita) and their partial research gaps (example: capturable-2 was not understood as a concept yet). From the global view of (Japanese style) rules design, they are a failure though (example: no concept of 2 eyes; also thereby the pseudo-seki flaw was made possible).
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Re: AGA Rules vs. Japanese

Post by Mef »

robinz wrote:OK, that makes sense, although it sounds like pure rules-lawyering with no relevance to practical play. (One presumably would actually fill the dame in f2f play - I know that's how I've always been taught to do it, and I am happy to, as I can't always see much in advance what protective plays are going to be required once/before the dame are filled.)

Mef wrote:however there are some positions (albeit very rare ones) where groups that would normally be considered alive (having 2 eyes) have unfillable dame between them.


This sounds intriguing (and impossible to me at first hearing - although I guess there could be dame which are unfillable due to being part of a "normal" seki which are also adjacent to 2-eyed groups at the same time) Do you have any examples you can show (or a link to Sensei's or anywhere else discussing such an example)? :)


The first example that comes to mind was one brought up on RGG a while back --

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Unfillable Dame? \n(No prisoners, 5.5 Komi).
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . O . . O X . X |
$$ | O O O O O O X X O |
$$ | X X X X X O O X a |
$$ | . . . . X O T X . |
$$ | . X . . X O O X X |
$$ | X . X X X X O O T |
$$ | X X O O O X X O O |
$$ | O O b . O X . X O |
$$ | . . O O O X X X O |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


The basic theme of the position is this -- At first glance, it looks like black is ahead by 0.5 points, but with dame present there are no points awarded to the top black group or the top white group (they are seki), meaning white is actually ahead 0.5.

White has a ko that can be started after capturing in the corner then playing 'a', but this ko is only possible if the dame are filled. This gets tricky because who fills the dame prior to playing out the ko will control how big the ko is (if black fills the dame, the group threatened by ko is 2 stones larger). Black has a ko threat at 'b' that is big enough to win the smaller ko (i.e. if white fills the dame) but is not big enough to win the larger ko (if black fills the dame). Hence, if either player fills these dame it will be a game losing move.

Since it is Japanese rules, needlessly capturing the white stone or playing to remove the ko-threat would cost a point and also be game losing.
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Re: AGA Rules vs. Japanese

Post by hyperpape »

I'm a total noob in rules discussions and in counting, so let me confirm this. Does white win by .5 under area scoring?
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Re: AGA Rules vs. Japanese

Post by Bill Spight »

hyperpape wrote:I'm a total noob in rules discussions and in counting, so let me confirm this. Does white win by .5 under area scoring?


Under area scoring Black wins by 1.5.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . O . . O X . X |
$$ | O O O O O O X X O |
$$ | X X X X X O O X 2 |
$$ | . . . . X O 3 X . |
$$ | . X . . X O O X X |
$$ | X . X X X X O O 4 |
$$ | X X O O O X X O O |
$$ | O O 1 . O X . X O |
$$ | . . O O O X X X O |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


:w1: removes Black's threat. :b2: removes the ko.

Black score: 44

White score: 37 + 5.5 = 42.5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . O . . O X 3 B |
$$ | O O O O O O X X O |
$$ | X X X X X O O X 5 |
$$ | . . . . X O 1 X 8 |
$$ | 4 X . . X O O X X |
$$ | X . X X X X O O 2 |
$$ | X X O O O X X O O |
$$ | O O 7 . O X . X O |
$$ | . . O O O X X X O |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


:b6: takes ko @ :bc:
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Re: AGA Rules vs. Japanese

Post by jts »

Now that I've seen a pseudo-seki position and thought about it, I actually like this rule! It's like a local version of the triple ko rule; if neither player is willing to give in and let the other player take an advantage, the local situation is tied. So let him who is without points cast the first stone!
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Re: AGA Rules vs. Japanese

Post by RobertJasiek »

Are you sure that you like it that traditionally called independently alive groups are called sekis or do you like only the strategic effect that, in order to get territory, a player has to fill all adjacent dame? It would be possible to add such a rule WITHOUT calling any independently alive group a "seki".

Are you sure that you want an arcane extra rule that, provided players do fill all 2-sided dame they can fill, changes strategy of only 1 of 50,000 games? Is this more important to you than annoying all players, who have to be aware of the extra artificial rule, in the other 49,999 games?
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Re: AGA Rules vs. Japanese

Post by John Fairbairn »

Bill said:
The Japanese 1989 rules redefined the game of go. I do not exactly know why, but I doubt that Western criticism was high on the list.


I'm not quite sure how to take "redefined the game of go", as I don't think that was the intention. But first to get the distraction of the second part of the statement out of the way, I agree that western input on this was minor. It was at the levels of the World Amateur and tournament rules where the Japanese tried to heed the concerns of westerners, which came about mainly from westerners visiting or living in Japan, or Japanese visiting western tournaments, especially those who took it upon themselves to write (not always favourably) in the letters pages of the go magazines. At the pro level, as I recall it, the main impetus was the start of international pro tournaments, the Ing and the Fujitsu. Several Japanese pros were quite vociferous about Ing rules and wanted to champion Japanese rules. But I think there was also some overspill from the amateur scene, and possibly a reaction to it. At any rate, they realised that new packaging was required.

In the fairly high-profile edition of the 1989 rules issued by the Nihon Ki-in for its 80th anniversary, Kudo Norio 9-dan (then a Nihon Ki-in director) said there were three factors in the basic policy behind the revision. These were (his words, and I think the order is important):

1. Observance of the traditional way of playing in Japan.

2. Rationalisation and clear discriminaton of the reasoning latent within Japanese rules.

3. Pursuit of rules of go for circulation throughout the world.

Whatever may have been the intent of the people who actually drafted the revision, I think this shows clearly that the intent of those in charge was that the package was meant to describe and uphold the traditional rules (see my post above).

The same booklet also, I think, supports the view that even the pro world was aware of the different sort of things going on in the amateur world. Tagged on at the end is a long question-and-answer section on issues such as how to deal with slow players, the proper nigiri procedure, which hand to press the clock with, how to handle jigo, triple ko, etc. It includes what to do about people who try to win on the clock with silly moves. Kudo says this is a case for calling over the referee, and if he were referee he would rule the game against the perpetrator of the time suji for bad manners (but at the same time he urges players to avoid this situation by leaving five minutes for the small endgame moves). All in all, this Q-and-A section reveals quite a bit about pro views of the amateur noise about rules.
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Re: AGA Rules vs. Japanese

Post by RobertJasiek »

John Fairbairn wrote:Japanese visiting western tournaments, especially those who took it upon themselves to write (not always favourably)


Is there something to learn from their criticism?

1. Observance of the traditional way of playing in Japan.
2. Rationalisation and clear discriminaton of the reasoning latent within Japanese rules.


The result did not solve well the two points' conflict. For rationalization, rules theory research was not advanced far enough in 1989. A verbal-rules-like description of life and death ("if strong players / tradition consider the status to be...") was too weak for rationalization.

this shows clearly that the intent of those in charge was that the package was meant to describe and uphold the traditional rules


This can be implied also from the rules themselves. E.g., the ko-pass rule(s) obviously serve this purpose.

which hand to press the clock with,


Oh. It is the first time I hear about that in Japanese tournament rules.

if he were referee he would rule the game against the perpetrator of the time suji for bad manners


Considering the at least significant number of Japanese pro games with time-sujis, such an opinion does not appear to be universal.

this Q-and-A section reveals quite a bit about pro views of the amateur noise about rules.


Rather I think it reveals Kudo's views. Otherwise there would be no time-sujis in Japanese pro games.
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Re: AGA Rules vs. Japanese

Post by hyperpape »

RobertJasiek wrote:Considering the at least significant number of Japanese pro games with time-sujis, such an opinion does not appear to be universal.

John Fairbairn wrote: this Q-and-A section reveals quite a bit about pro views of the amateur noise about rules.


Rather I think it reveals Kudo's views. Otherwise there would be no time-sujis in Japanese pro games.
Time-sujis can be used to gain time by playing a ko threat when in byo-yomi or to make your opponent lose on time. Many more people accept the former than the latter, and I believe the former happens in Japanese professional go. Are you saying the latter "destructive" time-sujis are common as well?
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Re: AGA Rules vs. Japanese

Post by RobertJasiek »

About the latter I have heard nothing because profound reports on Japanese sudden death lightning tournaments are a rarity.
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Re: AGA Rules vs. Japanese

Post by Horibe »

RobertJasiek wrote:Considering the at least significant number of Japanese pro games with time-sujis, such an opinion does not appear to be universal.



To amplify a previous post, Robert is comparing rotten apples to oranges here.

Pro "timesujis" are usually forcing moves intended to gain another byo yomi period for thinking. Inelegant, but surely Robert would not object to such play as within the rules.

Amatuer "silly movers" are taking advantage of the fact that most Japanese amatuer tournaments are sudden death. I suspect Robert could have realized this from the admonition to "leave five minutes for the small endgame moves" but he was probably too fixated in finding ways to criticize anything coming from Japan about rules.
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Re: AGA Rules vs. Japanese

Post by Bill Spight »

John Fairbairn wrote:Bill said:
The Japanese 1989 rules redefined the game of go. I do not exactly know why, but I doubt that Western criticism was high on the list.


I'm not quite sure how to take "redefined the game of go", as I don't think that was the intention.


Me, either. :) But that was the result, in more than a trivial manner. (Obviously, all rules changes redefine the game to some extent.)

In the fairly high-profile edition of the 1989 rules issued by the Nihon Ki-in for its 80th anniversary, Kudo Norio 9-dan (then a Nihon Ki-in director) said there were three factors in the basic policy behind the revision. These were (his words, and I think the order is important):

1. Observance of the traditional way of playing in Japan.

2. Rationalisation and clear discriminaton of the reasoning latent within Japanese rules.

3. Pursuit of rules of go for circulation throughout the world.

Whatever may have been the intent of the people who actually drafted the revision, I think this shows clearly that the intent of those in charge was that the package was meant to describe and uphold the traditional rules (see my post above).


Consider the second factor: "Rationalisation and clear discrimination of the reasoning latent within Japanese rules." (Emphasis mine.) The most frequent criticism of the Japanese rules that I heard before 1989 is that they were irrational. They had a bewildering number of special rulings, the reasons for which were not obvious. Some people answered, well, the Oriental mind is not rational. But, as the second factor indicates, rationalization was a prime reason for revising the 1949 rules.

That was a difficult task for two reasons. First, there was the question of how to handle kos at the end of play. Second, there was the fact that the Japanese rules do not count points in seki.

Now, the obvious way to rationalize a rule about the status of stones or territory is to appeal to play. Why is bent four in the corner dead? Because the attacker can start a ko which he can take first. But what about ko threats? The attacker can eliminate them before starting the ko. What about unremovable ko threats? Well, there are limits to appealing to play. Other special rulings made no appeal to play at all. Why must a player fill a ko at the end, even when the opponent cannot force him to by play? No answer.

The Japanese rules makers found a very creative way to rationalize them, via virtual play with the pass for ko rule, and redefining life, death, and seki in terms of that play. Almost all of the traditional special rulings fit under that rubric. What about ko threats for the bent four ko? There are no ko threats in virtual play except passes for specific kos. Why fill a ko at the end? Because if you do not, your ko stone or stones are dead by virtual play. Very clever.

But I would not say that the new rules simply revealed what was latent. The redefinition of life, death, and seki was profound, as I have indicated in my earlier note. In addition, the new rules have produced a new anomaly, as a result of the new definition of seki.

As for factor number three, I think that the J89 rules are dead in the water in that regard. IMHO, the wave of the future for international go is Button Go. :)
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Re: AGA Rules vs. Japanese

Post by hyperpape »

Bill Spight wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:I'm not quite sure how to take "redefined the game of go", as I don't think that was the intention.
Me, either. :) But that was the result, in more than a trivial manner. (Obviously, all rules changes redefine the game to some extent.)
Not obvious.

(Now you come back and say "it is too obvious" and that's a reasonable discussion ;-) )
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