Professionals in Amateur tournaments

[palapiku]

Just wait a couple years, Antti will crush them all!

[Violence]

I'm pretty sure if the AGA had their visiting professionals competing every year(sort of like how Kim Myungwan comes and destroys the US at every event), we probably wouldn't complain at all.

I really never understood what the whole deal was.

I mean, is it an Open tournament or not?

[hyperpape]

I'm pretty sure if the AGA had their visiting professionals competing every year(sort of like how Kim Myungwan comes and destroys the US at every event), we probably wouldn't complain at all.

It's not every day that I want to just chanting "USA! USA!"

[PeterHB]

Just depends whether you like the distinction of open & closed tournaments. I do. Open tournaments should be open to anyone who can be bothered to attend. If that means 3 chinese pros win, fine. Closed tournaments have restrictions e.g. nationality, age, gender, competence.

Special pleading doesn't impress me. Let the best woman ( or man ) win.

[hyperpape]

I actually think saying "it's an open tournament, suck it up" is not that helpful. It's not that the complainers are confused about what an open tournament is. They'd just rather have a closed tournament, or some hybrid type of tournament (which is the case the main event at congress).

[Koffein]

I can't express how happy I was to sit there on EuroGoTV watching the top two boards of a European tournament, consisting of 3 professionals and strong Korean ex-insei.

I can´t express how sad i was to sit there on EuroGoTV watching a big european tournament and not being able to see Europeans at all.

Several things need to be considered:

- Travel support: If Europeans (or possibly regular visitors) shall benefit from European tournaments, support their travel expenses. At least for "top" players. Prizes are no conflict if travel support is used. Why is it rarely used?!

and where does the money come from? most tournaments have no sponsor (or only free location), so 100% of the entry fee is already used for prices. You can´t expect to get money from EGF, since ING Foundation won´t pay anymore.

You can't make good money with Go, so why should the price-money only be awarded to strong european players (even those european pros), who are still weak when it comes to a competition with asian amateurs(!)?

Those "weak european players" won´t go back to East Asia, they stay in Europe to teach and promote Go. All of them already spent hundreds and thousands of hours to promote Go, so it´s only fair they get some money to be able to continue their work. If they can´t win money, they won´t be able to attend many tournaments, so they have no chance to compete at all and probably switch to <insert random game here>

[illluck]

I have no clue about the motivations of strong European players, but it seems to me like expecting to win money from tournaments for anything other than covering travelling costs to be pretty unreasonable (and even just that seems risky to depend on).

If money isn't the prime motivator, then I don't see why it is important to discourage non-Europeans from participating, since a steady stream of strong players from Asia probably can be just as helpful to other participants at tournaments?

Besides, is there really a big difference to the local players between an Asian winner and an European winner from far enough away that travelling costs become a major consideration?

As for being unable to compete, I'd imagine the prevalence of online servers to render that a non-issue.

[Koffein]

I have no clue about the motivations of strong European players, but it seems to me like expecting to win money from tournaments for anything other than covering travelling costs to be pretty unreasonable (and even just that seems risky to depend on).

It´s more like "if I win some money here, i can go to xxx"
Go tournaments are expensive if you attend lots of them. look at e.g. silt - he played 261 egf rated tournaments already.
let´s say the average tournament costs about 50€ (including traveling costs, registration fee, accomodation, food, ..)
so 250 tournaments cost about 12500€. not everybody is able to pay that much just to attend tournaments.

As for being unable to compete, I'd imagine the prevalence of online servers to render that a non-issue.

blitz games on <insert random go server here> are nothing compared to serious tournament games.

[illluck]

So most players don't attend that many tournaments, not sure what the problem is?

Serious games against equal opponents are NOTHING compared to serious games against opponents who are quite a bit stronger? :p

I guess I'm just not sure why strong European players should be treated differently compared to less experienced players (for whom prize money and such are not major incentives). Then again, I'm not even in Europe, so perhaps my perspective is limited.

[HermanHiddema]

Those "weak european players" won´t go back to East Asia, they stay in Europe to teach and promote Go. All of them already spent hundreds and thousands of hours to promote Go, so it´s only fair they get some money to be able to continue their work.

This, I think is the crux of the matter. If what we value, as the general go playing audience, is promotion and teaching of go, then we should spend our money on that. Prize money is a poor tool for this, as there is absolutely zero guarantee that the winner of that prize, whether Asian or local, will ever do anything significant towards go promotion.

Instead of high prize money, put some of that money towards attracting a strong player doing game reviews, or live commentary of the top board. Or award, as prizes to weaker players, prepaid teaching sessions with such strong players. I'm sure many players would love to win an hour of online teaching from any strong European player.

[John Fairbairn]

It´s more like "if I win some money here, i can go to xxx"
Go tournaments are expensive if you attend lots of them. look at e.g. silt - he played 261 egf rated tournaments already.
let´s say the average tournament costs about 50€ (including traveling costs, registration fee, accomodation, food, ..)
so 250 tournaments cost about 12500€. not everybody is able to pay that much just to attend tournaments.

It would appear that Silt has won various prizes already and had several free trips to the Far East, so he has recouped a lot of his expenditure, and is possibly in profit. What has he (and other top Europeans) done for ordinary go players?

Many others of lower grade have spent at least that sort of money and/or time) and much more (travel, teaching, organising events, writing books, running associations). What have they done for ordinary go players?

The profit-and-loss account looks pretty clear.

This, I think is the crux of the matter. If what we value, as the general go playing audience, is promotion and teaching of go, then we should spend our money on that. Prize money is a poor tool for this, as there is absolutely zero guarantee that the winner of that prize, whether Asian or local, will ever do anything significant towards go promotion.

Instead of high prize money, put some of that money towards attracting a strong player doing game reviews, or live commentary of the top board. Or award, as prizes to weaker players, prepaid teaching sessions with such strong players. I'm sure many players would love to win an hour of online teaching from any strong European player.

Precisely. Something for the ordinary player. If the stronger Europeans want to be nurtured specially, they have to give something back to ordinary players. There are plenty of weaker players who teach/organise/adminsiter/write they can learn from as regards giving back. If they want only to be stronger players, fine (maybe self centred but not ignoble) - but that means hard, relentless work and challenging really strong players, not subsidies. Depriving really strong players of the incentive to come to Europe by snaffling the prizes as subsidies means not getting to challenge really strong players. How can these European wannabee professionals then become stronger?

As I have recounted at great length in "The Insha Match", Japanese professionals were in a parlous position at the start of the 20th century. On top of the lack of sponsorship and national interest and the competition, the 1923 earthquake destroyed their offices and homes. They did not sit and whinge about prize money (well, some did ). They themselves put in all the very hard work, and made the sacrifices, necessary to find the sponsors, the publishers and the public. They did not rely on amateurs. That is the sort of spirit that is needed for a European or American Ki-in.

[RobertJasiek]

Most strong Europeans I recall spend extraordinarily much free time for teaching, organization etc.

[LovroKlc]

Most strong Europeans I recall spend extraordinarily much free time for teaching, organization etc.

And to put aside that much time it is very hard to have a regular job. So earning money on go is their only way to continue promoting it without dying of famine. And, if they don't win money on tournaments, it is very hard to earn enough...

[SoDesuNe]

Then again, one can only gamble on prize-money. Secondly, I, for instance, don't pay my entry-fee to support stronger players.
European tournaments are no excuse to make a livelihood on Go, they are a gathering of various players, who should have a nice time playing and learning together. I find it particularly sad that it should just be about money for like... what, 30 players in Europe?

As long as the prize-money primarily comes from players, who don't have a chance of getting anything back, no one ought to have a "right" on winning it. If you can't compete with asians, become stronger, i.e. by playing against them. They weren't born strong, you know?

Funny thing aside, we hold all those asian pro-games in high esteem and try to learn from them but when by chance a pro (let alone three!) comes and takes part in one of our own tournaments, his games are suddenly a nuisance. Very convenient.

[John Fairbairn]

And to put aside that much time it is very hard to have a regular job. So earning money on go is their only way to continue promoting it without dying of famine. And, if they don't win money on tournaments, it is very hard to earn enough...

You haven't died of starvation and don't make a living from go, so you presumably have a regular job. You have told us often you have spent a phenomenal amount of time on go - 2,345,679.333 recurring hours, was it? . I'd therefore expect it to be possible for someone else to spend that sort of time on pure go and yet likewise have a regular job, and eventually to be able to compete with Oriental professionals.

And please avoid tendentiousness. "Earning money on go" is not necessarily even one way of "promoting it", let alone the only way. I don't believe even an Oriental pro thinks he is putting in ten thousand hours to promote go. He's just trying to earn a living at something he enjoys.