122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

robinz
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Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Post by robinz »

@observers:

I don't understand why Kirby played that move. OK, white has to respond, but hasn't this exchange just strengthened white while doing, well, not very much really, to help black? What strategic or tactical feature have I missed that makes this a good exchange for black?
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Post by EdLee »

robinz,
Kirby may be thinking about this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . X . 7 . . . . .
$$ | . 3 6 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 O . . . . .
$$ | . O O 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . O X 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . X . X . X . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
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Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, again, I want to move away from this area and play this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But this area seems kind of double-sente for black and white. It might be a little bit "aji keshi" for me to play this, but I really want to play it so that white doesn't atari me. In other words, I don't want white to do this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This move prevents that, I think in sente, and then I can move on to the next area of the board that I want to play in.
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Magicwand
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Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Post by Magicwand »

I use android so can not draw. Someone draw for me.
I connect.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Post by SoDesuNe »

For observers:

Kirby wrote:
But this area seems kind of double-sente for black and white. It might be a little bit "aji keshi" for me to play this, but I really want to play it so that white doesn't atari me. In other words, I don't want white to do this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As far as I know, White doesn't want to play the marked move, because it takes a lot of Aji out of the corner (B3/C3) and even makes endgame (A4) smaller. With Black playing D6 now, C9 is almost dead and White in kind of a good position on the left. So why playing C9 in the first place?
Sente is nice, no doubt, but I would have played C4 after White's Kosumi-Tsuke. Black has still a lot of Aji with C9 then because White is not strong, though - of course - Magicwand would like to fight it out.
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Post by EdLee »

SoDesuNe,
SoDesuNe wrote:With Black playing :b1: now, :bc: is almost dead
How is :bc: almost dead?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . B . 7 . . . . .
$$ | . 3 6 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 O . . . . .
$$ | . O O 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . O X 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . X . X . X . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
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Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . 5 . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Re:

Post by SoDesuNe »

EdLee wrote:SoDesuNe,
SoDesuNe wrote:With Black playing :b1: now, :bc: is almost dead
How is :bc: almost dead?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . B . 7 . . . . .
$$ | . 3 6 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 O . . . . .
$$ | . O O 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . O X 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . X . X . X . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Well, almost dead doesn't mean, it has no Aji at all. But compared to the diagram below it has significant less Aji, respectively when it starts to run, the corner has significant less Aji, too.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . B . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X 1 X . X . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]


I assume, Magicwand's last move already aims at the Aji in the corner.
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Post by EdLee »

SoDesuNe,
SoDesuNe wrote:Well, almost dead doesn't mean, it has no Aji at all.
You seem to be using "almost dead" to mean something completely different. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ B is almost dead
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | O O O O O . . .
$$ | X X X . O . . .
$$ | . X . X O . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
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Re:

Post by SoDesuNe »

EdLee wrote:SoDesuNe,
SoDesuNe wrote:Well, almost dead doesn't mean, it has no Aji at all.
You seem to be using "almost dead" to mean something completely different. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ B is almost dead
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | O O O O O . . .
$$ | X X X . O . . .
$$ | . X . X O . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]


Okay, you have a point. I meant it in a "this move just harms yourself"-way. Maybe I should say so in the first place :o
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Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Post by Magicwand »

for obs only:
below is the reason why i didnt answer his move.
what black played is bad because i can tenuki and grab the flow.
it would have been better for black to play :b16: without playing :b14:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i can not capture one stone without aji so i tenukied.
but my move is actually related to left side.

conclusion: black's move :b14: is very very very crucial mistake.
although it looks like a correct play locally, this is a losing move in actuality.

edit:
i think kirby is scared to make a weak group and try to win by point differental by using 3 stone handycap.
that is very common in 3 stone handycap. IMO that is a sure way to lose the game.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I thought about this position for awhile - white's last move is one that I don't really know how to answer, usually. I feel like something similar has been played against me before... And I didn't know what to do about it then, either.

But I think that the key thing is to split white here, because I want to keep the potential to make these stones weak (in the future):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I play this, I am just making his lone stone stronger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . B W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Playing here puts very little pressure on white:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That's why I chose the move that I did. He might try to take corner points now by exploiting the aji I have there. But I think I'll be OK.
be immersed
Kirby
Honinbo
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Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Post by Kirby »

When I look at the board, I feel that my bottom left stones are kind of awkward - maybe overconcentrated, even.

I kind of regret playing D6. But I'm not exactly sure how to argue with my rationale from before that I didn't want white to atari C5...

I'm not really sure what would have been best...

But let's play a good game from here on out - I can only control my moves to come - not the ones I've already played. :-D
be immersed
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Magicwand
Tengen
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OGS: magicwand
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Re: 122. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ride the rhythm.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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