IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

red_z06 · Post by **red_z06** » Sat May 21, 2011 12:09 pm

Solution

This trick really doesn't get too bad for the user.

red_z06 · Post by **red_z06** » Sat May 21, 2011 12:13 pm

If white gets greedy....

jts · Post by **jts** » Sun May 22, 2011 4:04 am

In the refutation diagram, is black now supposed to tenuki? It looks like white should be able to harass at least one of those groups.

red_z06 · Post by **red_z06** » Sun May 22, 2011 4:32 am

jts wrote:In the refutation diagram, is black now supposed to tenuki? It looks like white should be able to harass at least one of those groups.

Well, the whole point is that white came into black's corner and took the corner territory and even the center stones have escaped serious attack.

But, since center white does not have two eyes, rest depend on the skill of black. So if you are a fighter, black is doable even when white responds correctly.

In most cases, white simply try to avoid tsuke after high approach and see black do 1 point extension. I guess they have been burned before.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Sun May 22, 2011 6:57 am

Can't White play like this?

red_z06 · Post by **red_z06** » Sun May 22, 2011 9:04 am

S2 is a must to prevent Ko. Black is very very happy with the amount of territory.

It is one of the happy solutions for black in the dictionary of hamete.

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Sun May 22, 2011 1:25 pm

Isn't there a joseki that goes like this? Or perhaps I am mistaken, and this one of the "special case" sequences that is considered normally more favorable for one side?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . O O X 3 . | $$ . . . 8 . . . 4 X O 2 . | $$ . . . . . . . 6 5 1 7 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------[/go]

If this is a joseki, then is it really more favorable for black if it goes like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . a 3 . c . | $$ . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ . . . 8 . . . 4 X O 2 . | $$ . . . . . . . 6 5 1 7 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------[/go]

Sure, black is a bit higher on the right, and can do things like press at a more effectively. But whereas black is completely solid in the first diagram, in the second diagram white can now approach at b much more easily, due to c. Maybe this isn't enough compensation for white?

Numsgil · Post by **Numsgil** » Sun May 22, 2011 5:58 pm

@lightvector:

I definitely prefer your first diagram for black. The second one looks like it has a lot of lingering aji to worry about, which reminds me of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" where he talks about preferring the "firmer capture".

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Sun May 22, 2011 11:22 pm

For me, diagram one shows a corner with an amount of territory similiar to a Shimari but it needed five more stones to achieve the same and White has a strong position, too.
In diagram two, Black has to play on the right side, I assume, because otherwise a White pincer there would overconcentrate Black's position. So White has Sente and a lot of Ko threats. Not a bad deal.

red_z06 · Post by **red_z06** » Mon May 23, 2011 8:48 pm

I need help.

I am stuck on this joseki like a drug addict. It seems 2ks don't fall for it but 1d's fall for it more. Has it got to do with looking down on weaker players?

I just spoke with my go buddy from 9 years ago. When I mentioned hamete, he knew precisely which one I'm talking about. He is now 4d and I am back down to 2k. Perhaps this joseki is ruining my play. But, it is so fun, I can't stop.

I may need a good beating upside the head before I can stop this madness.

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:19 pm

SoDesuNe wrote:For me, diagram one shows a corner with an amount of territory similiar to a Shimari but it needed five more stones to achieve the same and White has a strong position, too.

Do you mean to say that white is better there?

It's not exactly fair to say that black needed 5 more stones to achieve the same result, without any further qualification. The relevant thing to keep in mind is the difference between how many plays each side has invested in the corner. If equal, you expect a roughly equal result if neither side has made a mistake, and if one player has invested more, you expect a better result for that player. In that diagram, both players have played an equal number of times, and at least to me, the result looks close to equal (but personally I do slightly favor white, because I feel black is a bit low and cramped, and like white's influence).

In a shimari, black has played two times more than white, so it makes sense that black would get a drastically better result.

I still don't know how I feel about the second diagram though. Positional judgment is definitely not my strong point.

red_z06 · Post by **red_z06** » Tue May 24, 2011 4:13 am

From the Lee Chang-Ho's Punish Trick Move book (roughly translated):

Diagram B above explained as White is too generous. While white is very stable (same as dia a), black's territory has gained more meat (or ballooned).

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Tue May 24, 2011 5:26 am

red_z06 wrote:I need help.

I am stuck on this joseki like a drug addict. It seems 2ks don't fall for it but 1d's fall for it more. Has it got to do with looking down on weaker players?

What's stopping you just not playing it?

I'd like to say that the 1ds falling for it more is because they're stronger, and have more of the attitude 'I won't back down, I'll read my way to a better result'. Doing anything else, such as giving black the corner which is larger than joseki, does not lose many points but is also a way to plateau if you do it too much.

On the other hand, it seems more likely that it's just low sample size and confirmation bias

red_z06 · Post by **red_z06** » Tue May 24, 2011 5:44 am

What's stopping you just not playing it?

You get a rush as your opponent attaches and you do the x-cut. My mind rushes and start to wonder what will he do?
There is no rational explanation other than it is like a drug. You are drawn to it.

red_z06 · Post by **red_z06** » Tue May 24, 2011 8:31 am

I think I should have done one point jump instead of 41 M15. Any better moves?

As the text book shows move 24 was an overplay. He played perfect punishment for my hamete up until 23.

Life In 19x19

IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

Re: IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

Re: IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

Re: IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

Re: IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

Re: IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

Re: IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

Re: IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

Re: IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

Re: IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

Re: IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

Re: IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

Re: IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

Re: IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

Re: IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning

Re: IGS 1k vs 3k+ Unthinkable beginning