killing lines

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willemien
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killing lines

Post by willemien »

was wondering at what distance a line accross the board would be killing for the opponent

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Can white still make a living group?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X |[/go]


(and if he cannot move the line down a line :lol: )
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Li Kao
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Re: killing lines

Post by Li Kao »

So basically the Biggest side problem similar to the Biggest Corner problem
Last edited by Li Kao on Fri May 27, 2011 9:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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willemien
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Re: killing lines

Post by willemien »

Li Kao wrote:So basically the Biggest side problem similar to the BiggestCorner


something around that l i n e :lol:
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ethanb
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Re: killing lines

Post by ethanb »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Can white still make a living group?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . X . X . X . X . X . X . X . X . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X |
$$ | . X . X . X . X . X . X . X . X . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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Re: killing lines

Post by robinz »

Interesting - while I've not tried it, and am certainly nowhere near dan level, my intutition would be that a strong white player would find it fairly easy to live. Not only is there all that space, but black's first line stones could get short of liberties, and that aji must be useful for something.
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Re: killing lines

Post by hyperpape »

robinz wrote:
Interesting - while I've not tried it, and am certainly nowhere near dan level, my intutition would be that a strong white player would find it fairly easy to live. Not only is there all that space, but black's first line stones could get short of liberties, and that aji must be useful for something.
Not sure why we're hiding, but imagine that white peeps at each spot around the edge. Or, imagine that white plays some moves in the center, then black plays some responses--Black is much closer to having eyes. His stones won't die.


If you have seven clear spaces to the side, I think you'll definitely live. Beyond that, I'm not really so sure.
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: killing lines

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Um.

Black's stones are already alive. Picture black connecting everything except the corners. Four eyes.
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ethanb
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Re: killing lines

Post by ethanb »

hyperpape wrote:
robinz wrote:
Interesting - while I've not tried it, and am certainly nowhere near dan level, my intutition would be that a strong white player would find it fairly easy to live. Not only is there all that space, but black's first line stones could get short of liberties, and that aji must be useful for something.
Not sure why we're hiding, but imagine that white peeps at each spot around the edge. Or, imagine that white plays some moves in the center, then black plays some responses--Black is much closer to having eyes. His stones won't die.


If you have seven clear spaces to the side, I think you'll definitely live. Beyond that, I'm not really so sure.


daniel_the_smith wrote:Um.

Black's stones are already alive. Picture black connecting everything except the corners. Four eyes.


Daniel's got it right - black doesn't really need to worry about anything - he doesn't even have to answer a peep from the second line directly (or at all) except after most of the board has filled up and the fight has made it to the edge where white is desperately seeking a tesuji.

The "shape game" (as I've heard it called) is all about white scrambling for life. Black has nothing to worry about and he can focus his thickness like a laser beam, solely intent on killing. White wins if he can make two eyes - territory doesn't count. It doesn't matter if 120 stones die and eight live, if white finds two eyes anywhere he wins. Black has a superb advantage in that it is very difficult for white to contrive a ladder that works. So white has to rely on nets and driving tesuji.

It's awesome practice for reading (for both players), for sabaki (for white), and for fighting in situations where you should have an advantage but unfortunately have to kill (for black) -- "It's close, my moyo's my only large area... ah, he invaded! Must defend territory! Fly, my pretties!" (cackling is heard as the winged monkeys go forth to bring back the head of the white group)
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Mnemonic
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Re: killing lines

Post by Mnemonic »

We play this game a lot at tournaments and stuff and it's a fun way to relax between rounds. I've seldom seem white not succeed in getting two eyes, so the focus is usually on how long it takes. The record I've heard of was somewhere around 20 moves. It usually takes at least 60, sometimes over 100.
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"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Re: killing lines

Post by Magicwand »

how about playing Markovich game with this board?
who say white can live? i will play and kill :)
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Shaddy
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Re: killing lines

Post by Shaddy »

You're on! I'm making the thread in "Other versions of turn-based games"
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Numsgil
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Re: killing lines

Post by Numsgil »

(Clicky for the lazy people of the future where such things aren't as easy to find)
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cyclops
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Re: killing lines

Post by cyclops »

willemien wrote:was wondering at what distance a line accross the board would be killing for the opponent

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Can white still make a living group?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X |[/go]


(and if he cannot move the line down a line :lol: )


Would the answer be different if the width were infinite?
What about living between two black lines ( possibly infinite )?
Living in an empty black rectangle?
Many formulas to discover.
Would the MW-Shaddy contest be affected if the goban were infinite with the same setup and the goal to live inside?
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hyperpape
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Re: killing lines

Post by hyperpape »

cyclops wrote:Would the MW-Shaddy contest be affected if the goban were infinite with the same setup and the goal to live inside?
Yes.

Leave it to me to cherry-pick the easy question.
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cyclops
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Re: killing lines

Post by cyclops »

hyperpape wrote:Leave it to me to cherry-pick the easy question.

You must be very clever. Even more if you could explain.

edit: Never mind, hyperpape. Indeed the answer is obvious. It is probably more difficult to kill in my variant because he might escape through the holes.
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