Life and death of go words

[John Fairbairn]

When I was an active print journalist I went to very many press conferences. I was amused but perplexed at how often colleagues from the broadcasting media would try to get the event re-labelled as a news conference. There we were, queuing up to ask Thatcher or Gorbie a question, and some guys were bouncing up and down instead about such a trivial issue.

I thought of that with a start this week when reading thorugh some old Kidos. As ever, T Mark is beavering away transcribing games, and one current batch is games from the 1950s (two new Kitani games for the GoGoD database due for a new issue next month!). I do the easy bit of topping and tailing them with the the tournament details etc. As I go through the magazines I also get the tasty end of the lollipop by being able to browse through the non-game pages. One feature that caught my eye was a long series on terms - not so much what they mean but why they exist. I had always known that the early 20th century saw an explosion in go terms as part of the popularisation of the game, along with the surge in books. Most stuck, though many terms you now know would have left Shusaku looking blank.

What I had not not appreciated before though, being a scribe with inky fingers rather than a man with a mike, was that many terms developed, and developed the way they did, because of the need to describe games on the radio. Word pictures were needed. Loving, as I do, listening to cricket on Test Match Special or to the likes of Vin Scully on baseball radio, I felt entranced enough by this new insight to do two things.

One was to present the little quiz below. This is to do with a move where you add a stone next to one of the same colour in a straight line. Many people call this nobi. Occasionally they are right. More often it's something else. You will see the vast range of possibilities as you work through the answers. I wouldn't expect many people to get more than a few, but that's not really the point. I just want to share a little bit of unsual go history which may possibly change your thinking about the value of go terms.

Incidentally, when magnetic go boards first came out, one of their big selling points was that they were ideal for listening to games on the radio (a game could be spread over several broadcasts, so being able to store the position was a boon). The same facility applied to newspaper games, of course, but the 1930s had their equivalent of iPadders and radio was the thing was that was going to change the way go was played for ever...

The task in the quiz is simply to give the Japanese name for all numbered moves shown. There is not always 100% agreement among pros, but these were deemed near enough universal by go writer Mihori Sho. Mihori's terms are given in the Show/Hide portion.

The other thing I did was to write a piece for the GoGoD Concepts Library on the life and death (and reincarnation) of one of those many go terms that were commonly labelled "used by professionals" and considered too hard for the average amateur. Amashi is one such. This new one, deep valleys, is another, but far less useful. However, I don't believe that everything in go has to be utilitarian, and I offer it mainly as an entertaining look at one of the bywaters of the game. Radio days are here again!

The link is: http://www.gogod.co.uk/Concepts/Concepts.htm, then scroll down to Deep Valleys.

The summer 2011 GoGoD CD will have several more of the quizzes shown below, for other types of move.

Nobi1and2.png (6.35 KiB) Viewed 10290 times

A = Nobi
B = Burasagari (aka Iron Pillar)
C = Sagaru
D = Tatsu
E = Narabu
F = Shimari
G = (1) Nobi (2) Nobi (3) Osae (4) Oshi
H = Sou or Soi
I = Hiku

Nobi3and4.png (7.21 KiB) Viewed 10290 times

J = Hiku
K = Magaru
L = Tsukiataru
M = (1) Tsupparu (2) Tatsu
N = Osu
O = Oyogu
P = Hai
Q = Tsukidashi

Nobi5.png (1.65 KiB) Viewed 10290 times

R = (1) Oshiage (2) Nobi

[hyperpape]

I had not realized that those were links in the concepts page. The last time I looked at them, I thought they were just outlines of material on the CD.

[daal]

We've all heard the urban legend that Eskimos have many words for snow due to it's importance up there, and I assume that similarly the Japanese have good reason to use so many words for what appears to us weak-at-go westerners to be one concept. Being able to linguistically differentiate such moves might also help us better understand the game. For some of the moves (Iron pillar) there is already an English term, but for others apparently not. Is this a case in which it is more appropriate to learn the specialized Japanese terms, or may we hope that John might offer us a few translations?

[palapiku]

I see a push, a bump, a stretch, a turn, a descent, a pullback, a block, an extension, a connection, and maybe a few things i'd only describe as 'nobi'. Western terminology is about as detailed as it needs to be.

[John Fairbairn]

Is this a case in which it is more appropriate to learn the specialized Japanese terms, or may we hope that John might offer us a few translations?

Perhaps I ought to have made explicit the point that all the words would mean something to a Japanese from the ordinary language (sagaru = drop down, hiku= retreat, tsukiataru = dunsh into*, etc). As to whether it's useful to learn all of them, I'd say we have enough trouble with the ones we've already imported (shimari here is probably a surprise to many).

Nevertheless, Mihori and others do frequently make the point that using a wealth of terms like this does help with reading and visualising a position. Even if they are right, though, I think we'd do better to use English descriptive terms.

*Aah divven knaa whae she is, bonny lass, but Aah'm gannin tae show a bit of solidarity wi wor Cheryl. Yanks bashin Brits agyen.

[gaius]

Interesting!

Out of interest: I've always seen (for example in translations of Sakata's "Middle Game of Go" and Van Zeijst's "Making Good Shape") the spellings "hiki", "magari" and "tsuki-atari". Is the trailing "u" a recent change in transliteration?

And does the second part of "tsukiataru" have a different meaning than the word "atari"?

[RobertJasiek]

Is this a case in which it is more appropriate to learn the specialized Japanese terms

Strange Japanese terms have always amused me. I do not think that they are particularly useful, so I invented a limited number of names for move / stone types in Joseki / Fundamentals. Basically terms should express meaning or reason (like connection), major move type (like block), if necessary more specialized subtype (like corner block) and, where useful, direction (corner). This gives useful phrases with easily understood meaning, like 'connecting corner block'.

[gowan]

I got most of these right but I do read Japanese and use a lot of Japanese books and commentaries. I had Tetchu for B. How is that different from burasagari?

As a discussion point I'd say that the "two stones in a row along a line" type of description only refers to a shape while most of the various Japanese term refer to a function. I can see how that mode of description would be better for radio broadcast but it's also good in other cases because it draws attention to the reason for playing the move.

[John Fairbairn]

Out of interest: I've always seen (for example in translations of Sakata's "Middle Game of Go" and Van Zeijst's "Making Good Shape") the spellings "hiki", "magari" and "tsuki-atari". Is the trailing "u" a recent change in transliteration?

And does the second part of "tsukiataru" have a different meaning than the word "atari"?

There is no change in transliteration, but the Japanese forms are verbal forms, the conjugation of which is shown by changing the endings. The form -i (sometimes -e as in ate) is a gerund which doubles up as a verbal noun. The -u form is (simplifying) the present tense. Mihori discriminated between -i and -u forms for what would be esoteric reasons here, so I won't go into that.

However, the distinction is not otiose even in English. A verbal noun (doing) retains its verbiness and thus conveys a dynamic feel which is lost in the noun-oriented English equivalent. It's easy to make too much of this, but the feel of a what a Japanese pro says in Japanese is often rather different from what it feels like in English translation. For a single term it makes no difference, but over the whole lexicon it all mounts up. In the days of rec.games.go I made the point that westerners may be harmed by thinking of good shape as a static concept, when it is really embedded in a dynamic context and so has a dynamic nuance itself (in this case the -i at the end of katachi, or suji, does not denote a verbal noun, it's the context). It's often better also to think of sabaki as a process rather than as a result (we say make sabaki/achieve sabaki and that can be slightly off). As one way of understanding the difference in feeling, perhaps I can use programming. You can write a perfectly good program for almost anything in, say, old-fashioned Pascal. But if you graduate up to an OOP language, you feel (eventually) more like it's the real thing, and you can make smoother progress. I happen to believe that Japanese readers have that sort of advantage. This is part of why I always try to promote the use of English terms: so that we can progress from simple linear programming to OOP.

Atari and the atari in tsukiatari are the same (= hit). All the -u forms in Mihori's list can be changed to an -i form if you prefer, but do remember they are verbal nouns.

[John Fairbairn]

I had Tetchu for B. How is that different from burasagari?

It's not, but that's what the answer already said (burasagari aka iron pillar). FWIW I think burasagari is more than a tad more common.

[EdLee]

John,

I'm curious about the Japanese written forms. Could you correct any mistakes below:

Code: Select all

   Romanji      日本語          Chinese   Notes [meaning in Chinese]
A  Nobi         伸び            長
B  Burasagari   ぶら下がり        扎釘       "Iron Pillar"
C  Sagaru　      下がる           立
D  Tatsu　       立つ            長
E  Narabu　      並ぶ            並
F  Shimari　     閉まり           立/扎釘
G  1. Nobi      伸び           長
   2. Nobi      伸び           長
   3. Osae      押さえ　         擋         [block]
   4. Oshi　     押し            貼
H  Sou or Soi　  そう (?)        貼
I  Hiku　        引く            退         [retreat]

J  Hiku　        引く            長/退
K  Magaru　      曲がる          拐         [turn]
L  Tsukiataru   突き当たる       頂         [bunt]
M  1. Tsupparu  突っ張る         頂
   2. Tatsu     立つ            長
N  Osu　         押す            壓        [press]
O  Oyogu　       泳ぐ            爬         [crawl]
P  Hai　         はい (?)        爬
Q  Tsukidashi　  突き出し         沖        [push]

R  1. Oshiage   押し上げ         貼
   2. Nobi      伸び            長

[daal]

I see a push, a bump, a stretch, a turn, a descent, a pullback, a block, an extension, a connection, and maybe a few things i'd only describe as 'nobi'. Western terminology is about as detailed as it needs to be.

You may be right, but it seems to me that if the Japanese have more technical terms, it is because experience has led them to better differentiate between similar situations. If this helps with visualization as John's reply suggests, I'd say we should do our best to understand and name these subtle differences.

Here's an attempt from a non-Japanese-speaking weak go player to put the terms into English. Improvements welcome!

A. Nobi - Stretch
B. Burasagari - Iron Pillar
C. Sagaru - Drop down
D. Tatsu - Stand up
E. Narabu - low approach stretch
F. Shimari - Corner block
G1. Nobi - Stretch
G2. Nobi- (How is this different from E?)
G3. Osae Contact block
G4. Oshi Push
H. Sou - Rub
I. Hiku Retreat
J. Hiku Retreat
K. Magaru - turn
L. Tsukiataru - Charge into (While I like the somewhat onomatopoeic phrase "dunsh into," it's not exactly common English).
M1. Tsupparu - Head butt
M2. Tatsu - Stand up
N. Osu - Pressing stretch
O. Oyogu- Crawl
P . Hai- (How is this different from O?)
Q. Tsukidashi - Jab
R1. Oshiage - Tap
R2. Stretch

[RobertJasiek]

A. Nobi - Stretch
G1. Nobi - Stretch

thick extension

F. Shimari - Corner block

Shimari and corner block are two very different ways of protecting the corner.

G2. Nobi- (How is this different from E?)

corner block or thick corner block

G4. Oshi Push

center block or thick center block

H. Sou - Rub

connecting block or thick connecting block or connecting edge block or thick connecting edge block

I. Hiku Retreat

thick extension (towards the corner)

J. Hiku Retreat

thick extension (towards the upper side (and the center))

K. Magaru - turn

thick string connection

It is not a turn; a turn leaves behind a cutting point.

L. Tsukiataru - Charge into (While I like the somewhat onomatopoeic phrase "dunsh into," it's not exactly common English).

threat to cut

M1. Tsupparu - Head butt

cutting block

M2. Tatsu - Stand up

thick extension (towards the center)

etc.

[John Fairbairn]

daal: Your list of suggested English terms comes over as one from a native speaker. Robert's comes over as one from a non-native. The difference is one of intuition. You have grasped the verbal noun idea by using many words (e.g. turn) that can be used as either a noun or as a verb, which means we capture the essence of the Japanese term. Further, most of these words can be used with idiomatic complements that add to the feeling of dynamism (e.g. bend round, jump up, push along).

However, we've been through all this before on rec.games.go and it seems impossible to get agreement. For example, turn (where Robert is quite wrong to be so emphatic). There was no agreement on whether which of turn or bend signified magari or hane, not to mention other suggestions such as curl round. There was similar disagreement over peek and poke. It's a shame because I really do think there's a way forward for western go through the go vocabulary.

(Oyogi is a term that is not agreed on by pros - some use it for a kind of edge jump. But the idea is that it is a more adventurous sally into enemy territory than a hai=crawl)

[RobertJasiek]

I do not see the difference as one of native vs. non-native or of knowing or not knowing Japanese - I see it as spoilt vs. not spoilt with descriptions for the shape context place of a move or stone. E.g., if a move type is 'connection', then I do not care in the term whether opposing stones are touching the player's stone. What matters is that the stone does provide connection. If more information is needed, then it must describe how safe the connection is and optionally how big the value of, e.g., the connected group is. Anything else is of only tertiary relevance and therefore should be avoided in regular go terms.

Hence meaning is the most relevant. Terms should express meaning as clearly as possible. Not arbitrary meaning but the most relevant meaning.

I agree that terms play a great role for understanding. Good terms. Bad terms, however, hinder easy understanding.