22. Araban (5d) vs. zinger (1d)

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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O W O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Safety first. Following previous reading.

The white corner is big, especially if he slides out next. But that would give me sente, so I don't mind too much.
Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
2 : a pointed witty remark or retort
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Solomon
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I went over this in my last video and I truly feel there isn't much to discuss here beyond what I've already said to merit another video. I'll reconsider this proposition after I'm done with classes and add another video here if I think I'm wrong.
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No sense pushing my luck here. White has no weakness to attack, it's only black that can get cut up. This also makes me a bit thicker, and white doesn't get to peep at N13.
Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
2 : a pointed witty remark or retort
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by daniel_the_smith »

I think white got the better end of that deal.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by fwiffo »

That 5-5 stone seems awkward still though.
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . W . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well he's done a good job building a position I am not familiar with. Perfect :)

I don't want to give him a second big corner, so I invade. And I don't think whatever thickness he gets in return will be a big deal, with the thick capture and left side hoshi stone there for black.
Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
2 : a pointed witty remark or retort
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by topazg »

To Araban:

I'm surprised Black played M14 straight away - Doesn't Q14 fix the cut (so N14 isn't needed), and potentially do so in sente while starting to develop the right hand side? It felt like a no brainer from my humble observer point of view!
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

topazg wrote:To Araban:

I'm surprised Black played M14 straight away - Doesn't Q14 fix the cut (so N14 isn't needed), and potentially do so in sente while starting to develop the right hand side? It felt like a no brainer from my humble observer point of view!

Yep, I expressed similar sentiments in the video commentary for Move 29 - 33 at the 5:15 mark where I threw in the annotation. Here are some variations I would have considered as B that I didn't mention in the video:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Feels better for B this way.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . X X 1 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I tenuki after 1 instead, then B can utilize the bad aji in the corner to make appropriate forcing moves that will allow Black to not worry about netting and make my two stones "naturally useless":
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Up to 9, White can't get both good points 'a' and 'b'.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 5 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . 9 . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . O . . . . . . . O X O O 4 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 1 3 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Not much different directly capturing.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 7 8 a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . X X O O O . b . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X 4 6 . |
$$ | . . 2 . O . . . . . . . O X O O . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If I don't play 8, then a->8->b looks troublesome.

Note: 3:00am here taking the occasional homework breaks, so if something feels off I'll edit later after homework submission and the epic sleep after all-nighter :).
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . W . . . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . W . . . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . W . W . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Something I just learned today is that this enclosure has a very funny name, called a "pillbox": http://senseis.xmp.net/?Pillbox
There is also some fascinating history behind the enclosure as well: http://senseis.xmp.net/?PillboxHistory

Unfortunately, it seems research on this corner enclosure is extremely scarce and very little information can be found on it.

But regardless, it's not quite the same because Black invaded first before I had a chance to build the formation. When reading about the 3-5 + 5-5 "enclosure" I played, it seems that there is no information regarding the 3-3 invasion: http://senseis.xmp.net/?3555Enclosure - This kind of goes with my hunch that I mentioned in my video that the 3-3 invasion was a tad too deep. The aji at the 4-4 point is obvious from a double-peep, and with some room in the corner for maneuverability, it is unreasonable to expect killing the stone. There is a very simple and clean variation that ensure Black's life fairy quickly, but we'll see how Black plays first. My aim is as much "profit" as possible with sente.
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


.. to make life in there, or break out. I choose the attachment at E18 rather than B15, because if white gets thick facing the top side it's no big deal, since I also have thickness there. But white thickness facing the left would be more of a problem for me.
Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by HKA »

Regarding the pillbox formation - there is an excellent article by Lee Chang Ho in one of Yutopian's "Go Winds" pamphlets. Sorry, I cannot recall which one.
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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
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Triggers:
D17 -> C18


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Re: Araban vs. zinger : Malkovich #22

Post by zinger »

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Bummer. It looks like white 2 pretty much destroys me. Probably will resign soon.
Main Entry: zing·er Pronunciation: \ˈziŋ-ər\
1 : something causing or meant to cause interest, surprise, or shock
2 : a pointed witty remark or retort
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