115 - robinz v. 1986

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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm129 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O 1 . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Yep, that's the response I expected - I certainly think it's the best. For consistency's sake, if nothing else, I need to respond to it - and unfortunately I think white can tenuki. But I'm looking at H16 to see if it works now (I think not, but I need to keep looking) - if not I certainly hope to be able to take advantage of it later.
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm130 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . 1 . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this is the biggest move i could find it explands my moyo at the bottom, i need to make a comeback, slow and steady
standing still means going backwards
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm131 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X 1 . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . O . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


That's big, again, but it's not sente - so at first I wanted to ignore it and play R2 (big shiny move I've wanted for ages, and was relieved that white hasn't just taken). But then I reflected that I can play this extension first - if white ignores it, I can cut at G5; while it won't necessarily work, it would create exactly the kind of tactical complications that I now need. So I expect white to respond, and then I'll R2. Plus, this point feels huge - the effect if white gets it is vastly better for him, and it's probably even sente too.

The plan at the moment, then, is to get R2 as soon as I can (on my next move, unless something unexpected happens), then work my way into white's lower territory in whatever way I can.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

robinz,
robinz wrote:if white ignores it, I can cut at G5;
G5 is (a); could you show your variations?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X . O . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . a . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

EdLee:

Well, as I kind of implied in my post, I've not actually calculated very far - just that there's a cut there which will lead to another fight; it could be that my cutting stones will die, but I don't think it's completely trivial (at our level, anyway) to kill them, so, needing a big comeback as I do right now, it would be fun to try :D

I'm seeing:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X 3 O 4 . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . 2 1 a . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . b . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

and then :b5: at perhaps a or b.

Actually, having started to look in more detail when trying to answer your question, I am finding that most of the most promising attempts seem to not work :sad: But I will keep looking, and hope to find something. Note that I at least keep sente in the above line (if I tenuki after :w4:), and that, even if the cutting stones do die, they could be useful aji to aid a later invasion of this area.
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm132 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X 1 O . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this move is threatining the cut he is going to connect and im going to think about the next biggest play
standing still means going backwards
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Puppycakes
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Puppycakes »

In my opinion, this sort of move is the type that players around this strength need to scrub from their games. It is sente and robinz should respond with a connection, but it accomplishes nothing for white. It removes a liberty and forces black to connect. He can play it at any time as white can ignore it if black plays there. This move isn't valuable to white.
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm133 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


:cry: :cry: :cry:

- that just about sums up my feelings about this game right now. I had somehow totally missed that white could play that move, protecting everything in sente. There is no way I can let white get away with cutting at E7, which would capture my 2 cutting stones and thereby bring his left-hand group to life. I'll wait for a few moves to see how things pan out, but I am thinking I will resign soon unless I can bring about something dramatic.

(It's also rather embarrassing that I could lose this game so convincingly despite having by far the greatest number of prisoners, counting all the dead stones on the board. I guess I've been guilty of not making big enough moves and playing too close - that will be something to look out for when I review this game. Right now I'll have to concentrate my efforts on somehow pulling off a comeback though.)
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm134
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . 1 X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . . X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this ought to get me more time to think
i should stay agressive and look to make territory
i dont plan on following up in that area immediately 
its my attemept at leaving a glowing ember, maybe something will come up later  
standing still means going backwards
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Aphelion
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Aphelion »

If I were Black I would feel very happy about the last two moves from 1986. These moves only help to remove aji and burn ko threats. At the least, Black can be a little happier about being allowed to solidify those areas. At worse, White might find the outcome of the game is contingent on a huge ko, and he just wasted two of his biggest threats for no good reason.
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm135
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . 1 X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



Slightly strange move - seems like a waste of a ko threat, at best. Nothing to think about here, so I can put off my last desparate attempts to get back in this game for a little while yet.
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm136 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this is sente, & it makes the top a little more interesting :)
standing still means going backwards
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm137 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O 1 . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Huh? Well, I might have missed something of course, but I don't think that's even sente - it's just throwing another dead stone at me and giving me sente into the bargain. N18 has 4 liberties to white's 3, and I can't see any move on the left that works for white either. So this could be my golden chance to get back into this game. And if I have missed something and white can now kill my top group, at least I can resign soon and with a clear conscience :lol:

So, where should I play with the whole board to choose from? I know I keep going on about R2, but on reflection I think this hane is bigger (R2 threatens to capture a single white stone in gote, so I don't think white should respond to it). H7 for white would be big, and probably sente too. I'm not sure if this move is sente or not, but it's big enough that it has to be worth a try. I don't fear the crosscut, as I can, at the very least, extend to H5 in sente and then capture the cutting stone. Instead, I expect white to block at H5, and then we get into a fight that I've not tried to read seriously yet - the struggle for sente here could be as big as that for points. Whatever happens, it's complications inside white's sphere of influence, which is what I want and need :D
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm138 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . 1 . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


hump i made a mistake, i should have played there first
..... I'm mad at myself for that one....
its not looking to good for white but I'm not going out just yet
standing still means going backwards
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm139 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O 1 . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Perhaps I just don't care enough about this game any more, since messing up in the upper right, but I can't seem to resist opportunities to make things messy :lol: I do think this double hane is at least acceptable, though - the point is that, if white cuts at either of the available points, after I get H6 out of atari white is still going to have to defend my threated double atari at G5. And I think that in either case I can capture the cutting stone, although, as always, I may have misread.

The strongest resistance for white is probably just to defend. Then I am definitely going to need to defend myself (I am not yet sure of the best point to do that at), so will end in gote; but compared with a few moves ago I'll have already reduced white's territory some way, with scope for more in the future. I don't yet feel I'm back in with a particularly good chance in the game, but I could be if white makes a mistake or two from this point (I guess I really mean a mistake or two more than I do :lol:

I do wonder what the point of :w36: was now, though. I'm sure he wouldn't have played it unless he at least thought it was sente, so why hasn't he followed it up? (I still can't see a killer followup.) Either he decided I would respond to his latest move so he could go back and play whatever he was planning, or he has since realised he misread. I wonder which, but guess I'll find out soon :)

I note that the observer comments have dried up lately - probably because everyone has lost interest and is wondering why I haven't resigned yet :-|
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