115 - robinz v. 1986

Post Reply
illluck
Lives in sente
Posts: 1223
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:07 am
Rank: OGS 2d
GD Posts: 0
KGS: illluck
Tygem: Trickprey
OGS: illluck
Has thanked: 736 times
Been thanked: 239 times

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by illluck »

My guess is that white missed that black can play S13.
Top
User avatar
oren
Oza
Posts: 2777
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
Location: Seattle, WA
Has thanked: 251 times
Been thanked: 549 times

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by oren »

illluck wrote:My guess is that white missed that black can play S13.

I was wondering if anyone had a sequence where white can live. I'm just not seeing anything at a quick glance.
Top
Koroviev
Lives with ko
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:27 am
Rank: 6k
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 38 times
Been thanked: 35 times

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Koroviev »

1986 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm146 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


im alive, well almost alive, it cost me two moves so im still not
where i want to be as far as the center goes but im in the game :)


Alive? To my admittedly feeble eyes, W looks very dead here. Am I missing something?
Top
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Unhidden after :black:191:
illluck wrote:My guess is that white missed that black can play S13.
Yes, very likely.
Last edited by EdLee on Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
robinz
Lives in gote
Posts: 414
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:40 am
Rank: KGS 9k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: robinz
Location: Durham, UK
Has thanked: 95 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm146 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . 1 . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I spent a while reading here - and for a while had convinved myself that white had just succeeded in dying in gote twice in a row :-? But then I had a hard time finding a kill in the following line:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O 3 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 5 4 |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . 2 X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Probably I have better moves than the above, but I couldn't find any alternatives that kill.

I absolutely 100% stand by my assertion that white's last move was death in gote, though. I think it's absolutely clear that white is dead now, and think concrete variations are slightly superfluous. But feel free to ask if you want me to demonstrate a refutation of any particular white attempt at life. (If you do, most likely it'll be because I've gone wrong and will realise that I can't kill :lol:)
Top
User avatar
1986
Lives in gote
Posts: 502
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:55 am
Rank: malk-5k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: go1986
Location: Coloradao USA
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm148 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 1 |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


gosh darnnit its so obvious ...
*get yourself back together E* 
OK... talk about wishful thinking
*sigh* 
this moves forces a response,
and gives me some time to figure out 
what i should do next
*cigarette break*
standing still means going backwards
Top
User avatar
Aphelion
Lives in sente
Posts: 766
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:14 pm
Rank: KGS 4 kyu
GD Posts: 227
KGS: Aphelion02
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Aphelion »

1986:
Every move you play just because it "forces a response" is bad and just makes it harder for you to win. You eliminate aji for white and burn valuable ko threats. If you don't know where else to play, stop and think about it before playing a move purely because its sente.
Top
robinz
Lives in gote
Posts: 414
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:40 am
Rank: KGS 9k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: robinz
Location: Durham, UK
Has thanked: 95 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm148 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I definitely still have to respond to this, if white gets to capture, then a and b are miai for an eye at S13:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm148 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O a |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . c b X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But I have a few options for keeping white dead. I like this obvious solid connection though - it seems to leave least aji/ko threats, and by firmly capturing 2 of white's stones (and thus giving me an eye) it helps me in any capturing race that could develop (not that I was ever really worried about this).
Top
lightvector
Lives in sente
Posts: 759
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:11 pm
Rank: maybe 2d
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 114 times
Been thanked: 916 times

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by lightvector »

1986:
1986 wrote:this moves forces a response,
and gives me some time to figure out 
what i should do next


In a timed game, sometimes you can play a sente move or a ko threat to gain thinking time. On the board, it's a loss to waste a ko threat in this way, but even pros do it occasionally when they're in a critical situation and really need more time to think.

But this is not a timed game. There is no reason to play a move purely to give yourself time to figure out what to do, because you can already take as long as you want.
Top
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

robinz, 1986: the move numbers look messed up a bit around :w46:.
Top
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

robinz, Unhidden after :black:191:
The atari :b1:, setting up a snapback, is better than :black:(a) in the game ( :b49: ?) for two reasons:
:black: (a) reduced your own points by 1; :b1: puts both :ws: and :wc: in atari, not just :ws::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ X X X . . . . |
$$ O O O O O O . |
$$ O X X X X O . |
$$ X O . . X X X |
$$ O . O X O @ 1 |
$$ . . . X a X W |
$$ . . . . X O . |
$$ . X O X O O . |
$$ X . X X X O . |
$$ X O O O X O . |
$$ O X X O O . . |
$$ . O X O X O . |
$$ . O X X X X . |[/go]
Last edited by EdLee on Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

1986,
1986 wrote:this moves forces a response
What Aphelion and lightvector said.
Not all sente/forcing moves are good: there are good sente and bad sente moves.
You often play bad sente moves. I do, too. :) Learn to tell the difference -- it's an endless process.
Top
User avatar
1986
Lives in gote
Posts: 502
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:55 am
Rank: malk-5k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: go1986
Location: Coloradao USA
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm150 Prisoner Count :w3:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O 1 |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


That makes a lot of sense because i might need those KO threats,
i never though of it that way hmmmn,
i seen a lecture on Gou's site about good and bad sente
I'm going to watch it today,

i played this move to create eye space,
i got the feeling I'm burning all the hope i had for life out of this group,
but i gotta try, I'm on my last leg :blackeye:
standing still means going backwards
Top
User avatar
Redundant
Lives in sente
Posts: 924
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:00 pm
Rank: lazy
GD Posts: 0
KGS: redundant/silchas
Tygem: redundant
Wbaduk: redundant
DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
Location: Pittsburgh
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 103 times

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Redundant »

... the rarely seen death in double gote.
Top
User avatar
Aphelion
Lives in sente
Posts: 766
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:14 pm
Rank: KGS 4 kyu
GD Posts: 227
KGS: Aphelion02
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Aphelion »

1986:
Ko threats are only part of the equation. Even without a ko on the board, the moves you have just played are aji. If something changes on the board later, they can work. You are behind, so you need to conserve as much aji as possible, and later on you can make huge comebacks with that kind of aji. However, if you play them now they will never work, and you are just making life easier for White as you take away all his pressing worries. If I were white, I would say "thank you" everytime Black makes a move like that.

Your last move is also guilty of this. Instead of trying to create eye space, you should read out whether the group can live (its not so hard an exercise). If it can, great. If not, leave it, it may yield results later on.
Top
Post Reply

Return to “1-on-1 Malkovich games”