115 - robinz v. 1986

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:50 pm

1986 (after the game),

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:59 pm

Redundant wrote:
... the rarely seen death in double gote.

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:02 pm

For observers now, and for the players AFTER the game:

I don't think this is gote for white. I think Black must defend. Otherwise, :w1:

threatens to make a live eyespace, and if black prevents it with :b2:

...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X O 2 | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O 1 . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O W | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . 9 . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . 0 8 5 . 2 . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . 7 4 3 X O X O O . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O 6 X 1 X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O 3 . O . O X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . 2 O . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . 1 X X O . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . O X O X . X O O . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O X X O X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

...white can kill part of black's encircling wall and escape.

Now, since it is black's turn, black can defend and eliminate all his problems. One way might be with :b1:

, so that white can't push at ''a'' any more.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X a X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O 1 . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O W | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X b | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X c . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It also lets black directly block a white push at ''b'', which maybe could become relevant if white gets things like ''c'' and ''d'' in the endgame, and black starts to become worried about his eyespace in the lower right. Black might also just capture in the center, which seems simple and good too.

Anyways, if one is preparing to resign, I can see this sort of move as a last-ditch effort to be "tricky" and hope the opponent doesn't see the threat. Although I would feel bad to win a lost game this way. And that's assuming you've actually read out such a sequence. If you're just playing blind, that's not good either.

And in general, it's bad to keep playing with your dead group. As Aphelion said:

Aphelion wrote:1986:
Ko threats are only part of the equation. Even without a ko on the board, the moves you have just played are aji. If something changes on the board later, they can work. You are behind, so you need to conserve as much aji as possible, and later on you can make huge comebacks with that kind of aji. However, if you play them now they will never work, and you are just making life easier for White as you take away all his pressing worries. If I were white, I would say "thank you" everytime Black makes a move like that.

To players:

If a group is dead, the proper way is to STOP PLAYING there the moment you realize this. Maybe the surrounding situation will change and suddenly allow you to revive the group. Or if not, maybe the threats of doing so will let you make a few more points and force the opponent to play a little more passively in the endgame. Also, it puts a bit more strain on the opponent to have to keep an eye out for tricky sequences as the game continues and the positions keep changing around it. If you go ahead and play it out, you simplify the position and make it obvious and easy the the opponent thereafter.

One example of the lingering aji is if white actually does get the below moves later in the endgame.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . 2 . X O 4 | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O 1 . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O 3 | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X a | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . W . X . 5 . | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X b . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Then

threatens the center, and if black defends with :b2:

, white follows up with :w3:

, threatening life, and if black prevents it with :b4:

, he suddenly has to be worried about tricky moves such as :w5:

, which removes the eyespace of black's lower right group and threaten ''a'' and ''b'' as miai for connection.

That's how you use a dead group. You stop playing and wait for the surrounding position to change as the game goes on, and suddenly you might have new chances.

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:49 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm151 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . 1 . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

@EdLee: yes, you're right, and it was all my fault - I was forgetting to increment the move number on my moves :oops:

1986 at least seems to have been correcting it, so now I've woken up it should be OK now

Wow, this is a lot more complicated that I thought at first. White definitely can't get two eyes, but I think he can, if I tenuki, cut off some of my surrounding stones, and kill them first. Example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm151 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . 5 . X O 3 | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . 6 X O X O O . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X 4 X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O 2 . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

which is pretty much a one-way street from my point of view.

I have a variety of moves to try to avoid these, although some tricky points seem to still remain. This capture seems to remove most aji (it might even give my group a second eye to go with the one I can always claim at R14), and it's also a reasonable-sized move in its own right.

1986 · Post by **1986** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:26 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm152 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X 1 | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:42 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm153 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X . . . 1 . | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

1986, don't rob me of my newly taken prisoner :lol:

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:30 am

Unhidden after :black:

191:

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:38 am

1986, Unhidden after :black:

191,

Aphelion · Post by **Aphelion** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:24 am

1986:

1986 · Post by **1986** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:18 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm154 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X 1 . . X . | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Robinz: My bad buddy i fixed the prisoner count

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:22 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm155 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X O 1 . X . | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

1986 · Post by **1986** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:54 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm156 Pirsoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X O X . X 1 | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:01 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm157 Pirsoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . 1 . | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:03 pm

Unhidden after :black:

191:

1986 · Post by **1986** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:59 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm158 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X O O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X . X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O X O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . . . X . X . | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Life In 19x19

115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986