Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
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amnal
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Re: Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
Do you have any examples that you might like to discuss?
Invasions as a whole is a massively diverse topic. In any given situation you might have options including contain lightly, force it in one direction, keep it low, try to kill, etc. etc. - all of which are types of 'contain'. The correct moves to play will vary wildly, and good moves become bad depending on the surrounding stones.
It is possible to look at specific invasions as a way to get a feel for what is generally a good idea.
Invasions as a whole is a massively diverse topic. In any given situation you might have options including contain lightly, force it in one direction, keep it low, try to kill, etc. etc. - all of which are types of 'contain'. The correct moves to play will vary wildly, and good moves become bad depending on the surrounding stones.
It is possible to look at specific invasions as a way to get a feel for what is generally a good idea.
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Inkwolf
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Re: Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
Okay, say something like this:
What would you do next? How do you react to the marked white stone?
What would you do next? How do you react to the marked white stone?
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RobertJasiek
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Re: Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
1. Decide if the invasion shall be contained.
2. Determine how much the invasion wants to take away.
3. Set a goal how many points more than the opponent you want to gain from attacking.
2. Determine how much the invasion wants to take away.
3. Set a goal how many points more than the opponent you want to gain from attacking.
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Inkwolf
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Re: Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
RobertJasiek wrote:1. Decide if the invasion shall be contained.
Probably not successfully by me.
2. Determine how much the invasion wants to take away.
Everything it can get its mitts on, and the little dawg. too.
3. Set a goal how many points more than the opponent you want to gain from attacking.
(Wonders if I've ever GAINED points by attacking yet...)
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amnal
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Re: Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
Inkwolf wrote:Okay, say something like this:
What would you do next? How do you react to the marked white stone?
Robert's criteria are, of course, a good guideline - but so very difficult to follow, and even more difficult to know if you're following them correctly. Go is hard
In this example, white's invasion is a relatively early invasion. There is lots of room, and not that many stones on the board, so my first thought is that as black I can't do anything terribly harsh. I can aim to harrass it a bit, though. In the context of 'contain', I don't really have a preference. I would be happy to contain white in the corner if I get a wall, but also happy to contain white on the side if I keep the corner.
The first move I think of is:
This kick is often a strong way to push white around a bit. Black sort-of-secures the corner in sente (white's 3-3 invasion may still work later, but black can work to prevent that too). Black may continue to harrass, too, as white isn't really alive. Equally, white must be happy with making a mostly-live group in black's moyo.
If I wanted to play something else, I have several other options. For instance:
a would be a way to say 'live on the side or corner if you want, my moyo will be overwhelming'. b says 'the corner is mine, live if you must' (but might not be great if white can treat his stone lightly). c just lets white get on with living so that black can go and do something else - not the harshest way of playing, but often okay.
None of these moves are hugely aggressive, or deadly powerful. This is because black is not overwhelmingly strong, and white has invaded at a opint where he has lots of potential to play lightly or live quite easily. For this reason, I am content to take profit (either as a wall or as the corner territory) and let white deal with his stones. There is no need to 'contain' more than this.
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Inkwolf
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Re: Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
Thanks, Amnal. Maybe my problem is overreacting too soon.
And thanks, too, RobertJasiek. It will probably be excellent advice, sometime further along in my learning process.
And thanks, too, RobertJasiek.
It will probably be excellent advice, sometime further along in my learning process.-
Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
The fact that you use the word 'contain' suggests that you may be setting the bar too high for yourself. As a general rule, invasions are not contained. Most reasonable invasions are made with enough room to run out. ( Corner invasions are a notable exception )
The first verb that you might want to use when thinking about defending against invasions is 'limit', not 'contain'.
There is a process of give and take here. The invading player does not want to overextend and get killed. The defender does not want to get greedy and lose a bunch of points to an invader. Among experienced players, the invader plays just deep enough that he is fairly sure that he won't get killed, and the defender tries to build walls to limit the damage and maybe use those walls to get territory elsewhere.
So be prepared to concede a little potential territory. Keep in mind that you don't have to kill it. Often your best result comes from chasing it, knowing all the while that you are not going to catch it. And when it finally gets away, you will have a strong bunch of stones that you can use for something else.
The first verb that you might want to use when thinking about defending against invasions is 'limit', not 'contain'.
There is a process of give and take here. The invading player does not want to overextend and get killed. The defender does not want to get greedy and lose a bunch of points to an invader. Among experienced players, the invader plays just deep enough that he is fairly sure that he won't get killed, and the defender tries to build walls to limit the damage and maybe use those walls to get territory elsewhere.
So be prepared to concede a little potential territory. Keep in mind that you don't have to kill it. Often your best result comes from chasing it, knowing all the while that you are not going to catch it. And when it finally gets away, you will have a strong bunch of stones that you can use for something else.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
The corollary to this is that when you invade your opponent's territory, usually you will do better planning by to run out rather than hunker down and make eyes. ( Again, corner invasions are the exceptions )
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gogameguru
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Re: Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
At a basic level:
Work out which area of yours you think is most valuable. Approach the invading group in a way that starts sealing that area off. If you can also keep the pressure on that group, it's a bonus. You'll learn how to do that second part with experience.
When trying to contain a snake-like group, don't get too close. Falling back a little bit makes it harder for it to break through your containment line.
Work out which area of yours you think is most valuable. Approach the invading group in a way that starts sealing that area off. If you can also keep the pressure on that group, it's a bonus. You'll learn how to do that second part with experience.
When trying to contain a snake-like group, don't get too close. Falling back a little bit makes it harder for it to break through your containment line.
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Kirby
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Re: Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
Read.
This response probably sounds snarky, but I think there's no other way.
be immersed
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karaklis
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Re: Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
Kirby wrote:Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
Read.
This response probably sounds snarky, but I think there's no other way.
Until you're about strong SDK, you don't know yet what to read, so that is what you have to learn first.
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Kirby
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Re: Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
karaklis wrote:...
Until you're about strong SDK, you don't know yet what to read, so that is what you have to learn first.
I kind of disagree. IMO, the scenario you describe happens because you do not yet have enough practice. Yeah, you may read out some pointless stuff at first, but if your focus is solely on reading, your selection of candidate moves will become refined.
be immersed
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karaklis
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Re: Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
Kirby wrote:I kind of disagree. IMO, the scenario you describe happens because you do not yet have enough practice. Yeah, you may read out some pointless stuff at first, but if your focus is solely on reading, your selection of candidate moves will become refined.
I don't see where we disagree. The lack of practice is the point: You will have gathered enougth practice once you have reached a strong kyu grade, maybe 2-3k. At 6-7k (that's the area where I am currently) you cannot read out sequences, because it is exactly as you said: you read out pointless stuff. After reading you have to judge the situation, and that's where mid-SDK and weaker players still fail at.
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daal
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Re: Any general tips on how to contain an invasion?
Kirby, I'm curious of what you think of David's advice below. It is essentially echoes what Yilun Yang recommends in the chapter "Choosing the Direction of Attack" in Vol 1 of his Workshop Lectures, and seems to respond to Karaklis' need as well.
gogameguru wrote:Work out which area of yours you think is most valuable. Approach the invading group in a way that starts sealing that area off. If you can also keep the pressure on that group, it's a bonus. You'll learn how to do that second part with experience.
Patience, grasshopper.