On breaking out...

Inkwolf · Post by **Inkwolf** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:03 pm

I will have to move to the Amateurs section soon, I've had a few wins and they're going to my head. :rambo:

But...

This is a game I played today. I really ought to have been able to win, but I let the guy cap me off with a solid wall. Breaking out is something I need to work on--too much of this happens in my games. I would welcome any suggestions on when, where and how I ought to have broken out to the center and put an end to the wall-building.

And please don't laugh (or cry) too hard at our low-level playing.

jts · Post by **jts** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:53 pm

5: In general, you don't want to stop in the middle of close-contact fights like this. Every move is critical. You can cut his stones apart, you can deny them a base on the side, etc. Being one move ahead is huge.

9: You can atari in two directions! Are you sure this is better? Why did you choose this way instead of the other way?

13: This is a shape you should get out of the habit of making. E7 or D8 protect against both cuts, but without leaving black with the same ability to push you around.

17: Keep your stones together, and the black stones cleanly separated with F8. (F8 also threatens to unleash E6.)

23: Oh, ouch. Do you see that you can capture these stones in a ladder? Now B can capture your stones in a ladder, instead. (Even if your cutting stones weren't ladderable, B can put E10 in atari and escape.)

43: Great job spotting this! Very advanced for 18k.

47: Oh no! The ladder worked: read out what happens if you play F12 instead.

57: At some point around here, I think you should have played D15, or moved to another part of the board.

61: I'm sure you see now that this was a mistake... but let it be a lesson to you. Think more than :03 about each move.

In fact, I now see that you played the first 100 moves in six minutes, which suggests to me that it's not good to spend too much time reviewing your game. I'll just give you three pointers:

(i) Spend some time reading out ladders. You missed a lot of ladders.

(ii) You need to adjust your strategy to the position on the board. You can always choose between taking influence and taking territory; when your opponent already has a lot of control over the center, if you take two points on the side you're giving him five points in the center. The point isn't breaking through his wall, it's about knowing when to prevent him from setting up a wall at all. But I don't think you need to understand this to keep improving! You could have beaten this guy just by cutting his position into shreds.

(iii) Play more slowly.

You mention you play computers a lot. Just because they come at you with a move immediately, doesn't mean you have to. Maybe stick to human opponents for a while?

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:04 pm

[admin]
I moved this from the beginner's forum.
[/admin]

Your plans are admirable, but you are getting ahead of yourself when you ask about preventing a particular large scale formation. It is like a builder who asks why his houses end up lopsided when he still does not know how to lay one brick squarely upon another.

Your answer will be found by learning the fundamentals. When you have mastered them, then breaking out will be effortless. The particular fundamentals that I recommend are:
1) Connect your own stones, and disconnect his.
2) Read ladders

My comments are in the first 70 moves.

BTW, you might learn faster if you play 9x9 or 13x13 for a while.

jts · Post by **jts** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:00 am

by the way... never surrender! :rambo:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 232 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O O O O . O . O | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . X X O X O O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . . . X X O X O X O | $$ | . O . O O X . . . , . . X O X X X X O | $$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . X X X O O | $$ | . O . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . O O O X X . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . O X X O X . . . . . X O . . O | $$ | . . . . O X . X . X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O O X X . X , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X X O O X . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O O O O O . O O X X . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . O O . . . O O O X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O O X O O O X O X X . . . . X O O O | $$ | . O O X O X O X X . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . O X O X X O X X X X . 3 . X O O O | $$ | O O X X X X 4 O O O X O O . X O . . O | $$ | . O O X . . X O . O O 2 1 . X O . O . | $$ | . O X X . . X X X O . . . . X O . O . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 232 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O O O O . O . O | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . X X O X O O O O . | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . . . X X O X O X O | $$ | . O . O O X . . . , . . X O X X X X O | $$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . X X X O O | $$ | . O . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . O O O X X . . . . . . . X O . O . | $$ | . . . . O X X O X . . . . . X O . . O | $$ | . . . . O X . X . X . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . O O O X X . X , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X X O O X . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O O O O O . O O X X . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . O O . . . O O O X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O O X O O O X O X X . . . . X O O O | $$ | . O O X O X O X X . X . . 6 . X X O . | $$ | . . O X O X X O X X X X . 4 5 X O O O | $$ | O O X X X X 3 O O O X O O . X O . . O | $$ | . O O X . . X O . O O 2 1 . X O . O . | $$ | . O X X . . X X X O . . . . X O . O . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Inkwolf · Post by **Inkwolf** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:13 am

Thanks so much for the replies and all the good tips! I'll try to take more time, and ladders will have to be my next study focus.

jts wrote:5:
9: You can atari in two directions! Are you sure this is better? Why did you choose this way instead of the other way?

I thought his corner connection would hem me in more than the row of three off to the side.

47: Oh no! The ladder worked: read out what happens if you play F12 instead.

Wouldn't C 14 be a ladder breaker? EDIT: D'oh!~ It wasn't there yet...never mind.

61: I'm sure you see now that this was a mistake... but let it be a lesson to you. Think more than :03 about each move.

I have indeed kicked myself over that abysmally stupid move several times.

(iii) Play more slowly. You mention you play computers a lot. Just because they come at you with a move immediately, doesn't mean you have to. Maybe stick to human opponents for a while?

I will try both. The trouble with playing humans is that I don't see too many around my level on KGS, mostly 8k and above. I hate to waste the time of a good player when I'm still experimenting with tactics, (I know some people get really annoyed when you keep playing after you've obviously lost anyway.)

Joaz, thanks for the alternate play suggestions, I will go over them.

jts wrote:by the way... never surrender!

Thanks, and thanks for the play suggestions!

I thought after the fact that there might have been a chance of taking out that lower right section of wall from the point where I passed, but basing strategy on the hope that your opponent will do something really stupid is, I hear, a bad habit to develop.

jts · Post by **jts** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:31 am

Inkwolf wrote:
jts wrote:5:
9: You can atari in two directions! Are you sure this is better? Why did you choose this way instead of the other way?

I thought his corner connection would hem me in more than the row of three off to the side.

What do you mean by this? Can you post the variation that you feared?

The trouble with playing humans is that I don't see too many around my level on KGS, mostly 8k and above. I hate to waste the time of a good player when I'm still experimenting with tactics, (I know some people get really annoyed when you keep playing after you've obviously lost anyway.)

Have you tried automatch?

jts wrote:by the way... never surrender!

Thanks, and thanks for the play suggestions!

I thought after the fact that there might have been a chance of taking out that lower right section of wall from the point where I passed, but basing strategy on the hope that your opponent will do something really stupid is, I hear, a bad habit to develop.

Here, I don't think it's a matter of your opponent doing something stupid - with best play by both sides, you're alive. You're right that not hoping for a mistake is a good habit... but you still could have spent five minutes reading out the situation, and then surrendered if you were still positive that you had no honest moves.

Inkwolf · Post by **Inkwolf** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:26 pm

jts wrote:
Inkwolf wrote:
jts wrote:5:
9: You can atari in two directions! Are you sure this is better? Why did you choose this way instead of the other way?

I thought his corner connection would hem me in more than the row of three off to the side.

What do you mean by this? Can you post the variation that you feared?

If you really want to see more bad play.....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I play the atari at 1, they connect at two. I have two cutting points and need to connect at a or 3. Since I feel there is more to be gained by trying to connect with my stones on the upper side than by taking the corner, I choose three. Black extends at 4. Not wanting to be cut off, I attach at 5, black plays the hane, I connect, black fills in the gap in their wall. If I continue to move along the wall, Black happily reciprocates, probably ending up in some awful mess like the below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | O O X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Have you tried automatch?

Don't really know what it is and how it works. I will investigate.

... but you still could have spent five minutes reading out the situation, and then surrendered if you were still positive that you had no honest moves.

Reprimand noted. :salute:

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:02 pm

Inkwolf wrote:...
$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

... need to connect at a or 3. Since I feel there is more to be gained by trying to connect with my stones on the upper side than by taking the corner...

Corners are generally worth more than sides. :w3:

at 'a' will get you a better result. Again, studying fundamentals ( in this instance: "Corners first, sides next, center last" ) will solve a lot of problems for you.

jts · Post by **jts** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:49 pm

I agree with Joaz about the corner, but there are two other fundamentals at play here:

(i) Cleanly separating stones - after connecting at (a), if W gets a chance to push through one more space and isolate the black stone in the corner, B is in huge trouble.
(ii) Playing moves with big follow-ups - when you play a move that has a big follow-up, eventually your opponent will have to come back and answer it, and then you get to take the initiative again. (Ideally he has to answer it immediately: this is called "sente".) Here, because pushing through after (a) is so big, B will need to come back to block at some point.

Why don't you connect at (a), and show us what you think will happen after you connect there?

Inkwolf · Post by **Inkwolf** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:51 pm

jts wrote:Why don't you connect at (a), and show us what you think will happen after you connect there?

Well, I played it through several ways, and I think the first is probably the worst-case scenario.

None of them turned out very well for white if Black makes any effort to connect the single lower stone.

I think up to 4 is pretty obvious. After which white would have to choose whether to cut or continue reaching for the corner down the left side.

Something like this, maybe, if white tries to cut...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . $$ | . . O X 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 1 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . 0 X 5 7 . . . . . $$ | . . . 8 6 9 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . $$ | 9 3 O O X . . . . . . $$ | 8 1 X X O O . . . . . $$ | 0 2 . X X O 7 . . . . $$ | . . . . 6 4 5 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

It actually seems to work out better not to try cutting off the lower stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . $$ | . . O X 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 1 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . 5 X 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . . 7 8 . . . . . . $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

Playing a tiger's mouth below 'a' instead of connecting played out somewhere between the two.

But of course, I'm playing both sides, so neither black or white does anything unexpected by me. Do you think it would play out differently?

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:06 pm

I think extending into the corner is better in this case, because I think white ends up too weak if he cuts. You seem to notice that yourself, which is good.

Here's a few tips on the plays in the diagrams you came up with.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . $$ | . 3 O O X . . . . . . $$ | . 1 X X O O . . . . . $$ | . 2 . X X O . 7 . . . $$ | . . . . 6 4 5 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

This

gives white better eyeshape while protecting the cut, and also avoids forming an empty triangle.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . $$ | . 3 O O X . . . . . . $$ | 8 1 X X O O . . . . . $$ | . 2 . X X O . 7 . . . $$ | . . . . 6 4 5 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

is a small endgame move. It is worth only a couple of points. These moves shouldn't be played until the end of the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm8 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 1 O X . . . . . . $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . $$ | . O O O X . . . . . . $$ | . O X X O O . . . . . $$ | . X . X X O . O . . . $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

Instead, cutting white seems like a good move. If :w9:

, take your time to confirm that :b10:

captures the five white stones.

If white plays as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm8 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . $$ | . 4 3 . . . . . . . . $$ | . 2 1 O X . . . . . . $$ | 6 . O X X . . . . . . $$ | . O O O X . . . . . . $$ | b O X X O O . . . . . $$ | 7 X . X X O . O . . . $$ | . a c . X X O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

White has to [sl=TheSecondLineIsTheRouteToDefeat]push along the second line[/sl] twice before coming back with :w13:

to make two eyes. Black might now have to play :b14:

or 'b' (or the more simple but slightly worse for points 'c') to avoid a white play at 'a', which turns the situation into a rather complicated life and death situation which I don't think black can survive from.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . $$ | 9 3 O O X . . . . . . $$ | 8 1 X X O O . . . . . $$ | . 2 . X X O . 7 . . . $$ | . . . . 6 4 5 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

is another endgame play and like before is too slow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . $$ | . . 0 O B . . . . . . $$ | . . O B B . . . . . . $$ | . O O O B . . . . . . $$ | X O X X O O . . . . . $$ | . X . X X O . O . . . $$ | . . . . X X O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

is a great point instead which gets [sl=PushingBattle]gets ahead in the pushing battle.[/sl] This move is simply huge - it builds fourth line territory, protects your cut, and has a large effect on the center. Black's :bc:

stones go from looking strong to looking very weak with this one move. Speaking of the cut, if black plays :b10:

, you can probably see how to capture that stone. (Hint: Click to show).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . $$ | . . O X 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 1 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . 5 X 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . . 7 8 . . . . . . $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

This diagram looks pretty realistic. I think black should play :b10:

next because the difference between white and black getting that point is huge in this variation as well.

As for the tiger's mouth variation, I think it should end up the same as the diagram above, just with :w3:

and

in swapped places.

Inkwolf · Post by **Inkwolf** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:16 am

Thanks, Dusk Eagle - more stuff to stretch my brain cells with!

Thanks, everyone, actually, if I haven't said it. This all has been really helpful in showing me what I need to work on.

jts · Post by **jts** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:21 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . W . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . $$ | . . O X 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 1 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . 0 X 5 7 . . . . . $$ | . . . 8 6 9 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

This is a sequence you thought would get played; I left out the second-line hane-and-connect, and I've added 11 as the marked stone at the position Dusk Eagle mentioned.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . O X B . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 X . 4 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]

This marked black stone is how black normally plays, and I've shown the next few moves that frequently get played. Which diagram do you think White likes better, the top or the bottom? Why?

Inkwolf · Post by **Inkwolf** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:00 pm

I'd say the top is more favorable for white. On the bottom there seems little or no chance of separating or cutting the black stones. Black's horizontal structure claims more territory from a higher position, and with less stones. Any threat or block white wants to make from the right now would involve a wide separation of white's stones.

EDIT: I guess with that bit of perspective, the top looks much less like a lousy situation for white.

Black probably gets the corner, but is pressured from both sides while white builds outward-facing structure. And if black gets ambitious and tries to expand to one side, it leaves them vulnerable to invasion from the other...

:bow:

Thank you.

Inkwolf · Post by **Inkwolf** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:27 pm

Just a footnote:
I took your advice, tried to take my time and read more.

I LOST my game because the clock ran out on me. :grumpy:

On the plus side, as far as i could tell, I was about to give LibertyBot a seriously major butt-kicking.

Life In 19x19

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