Low approach against Komoku - revival?

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:14 am

When I started to play Go, some two years ago, the low approach against a Komoku was almost never played. It was said, it emphazises too much on territory but modern play tends to be more influencial and speedy (something like that).
But now, for a month or so, I see the low approach very often. It really bugs me, because I only know a handful Josekis with it ^^

Can someone explain me, why the low approach has a revival? Is there a new Fuseki strategy?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Example $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Example $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:27 am

1. Mood.

2. Excellent opportunity to delve into Ishida volume 1 (again). :mrgreen:

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:34 am

Whilst the high approach is locally the most common move in modern play, the low approach has never been unpopular. A quick rough search in GoGoD for games from 2000-2011 has a low approach:high approach ratio of about 9:11.

If you're referring to games from KGS players, I would guess that the reason for your perceiving this is some mixture of confirmation bias, coincidence, and perhaps something like playing more japanese players if you're playing at slightly different times to normal.

If you're referring to pro games, I'd still guess confirmation bias as I'm fairly sure both approaches are still common. It isn't impossible that there's a new popular opening that calls for the low approach, but it doesn't seem likely to me.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:40 am

I like the low approach, sometimes.

Maybe the only reason I don't play it more is that I don't like this (set of?) joseki(s):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc I prefer white in this set of josekis. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:24 am

Hm, okay. I thought there was more ^^ (Yes, my examples come from KGS games.)

Thank you!

gogameguru · Post by **gogameguru** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:26 pm

Kirby wrote:I like the low approach, sometimes.

Maybe the only reason I don't play it more is that I don't like this (set of?) joseki(s):
$$Bc I prefer white in this set of josekis.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc I prefer white in this set of josekis. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Do you count patterns like this in your evaluation? I'm not sure if they're really categorised as joseki, but they are effective in the right openings.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Fast opening for black. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 3 . . 5 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White is thick, but black's opening is fast, black has sente to take another big point (possibly right centre star point). I used to dislike dealing with white's close pincer at 2 until I realised that black didn't have to respond locally. In retrospect white might've preferred to play a looser pincer now, to dissuade black from playing this way.

Also, if white doesn't play 6, then black can mobilise 1 and that makes 3 and 5 look good.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:48 pm

Never would of thought to play like that. Perhaps I'll try it--I rarely play outside of my comfort zone in the opening.

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:40 pm

hyperpape wrote:Never would of thought to play like that. Perhaps I'll try it--I rarely play outside of my comfort zone in the opening.

Your comfort zone is the comfort zone of a 4k. If you want your opening to be the opening of a 3k, or a 1d, or a 5d or whatever, you have to take a step further!

HKA · Post by **HKA** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:01 am

Fear of the low approach can extend far into the dan ranks. The most consistant criticism I receive from my teacher is failing to approach low. Invariably I play high, or the long knight's approach - mostly out of fear and lack of practice.

I am very proud I had the guts to play low (2 in the diagram) against a strong 7 dan (AGA 7.9) in the Ing Masters Qualifier this weekend. Perhaps the fact that I had no chance of winning gave me courage - but I think it was the right move. I certainly liked the immediate result. I thought I would share it since it seemed similar to gogameguru's example.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Example $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . 1 . . . . 3 . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 7 . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 8 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:05 am

gogameguru wrote:...

Do you count patterns like this in your evaluation? I'm not sure if they're really categorised as joseki, but they are effective in the right openings.

$$Bc Fast opening for black.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 3 . . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Fast opening for black. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 3 . . 5 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

...

No, I do not recall ever having considered this variation. It is interesting to consider the fact that you don't have to respond locally. I almost always do.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:06 am

amnal wrote:
hyperpape wrote:Never would of thought to play like that. Perhaps I'll try it--I rarely play outside of my comfort zone in the opening.

Your comfort zone is the comfort zone of a 4k. If you want your opening to be the opening of a 3k, or a 1d, or a 5d or whatever, you have to take a step further!

I like this mentality. I thought I'd ask, though, do you suppose it's possible that you take a step backwards in an attempt to move forward?

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:43 am

Kirby wrote:
amnal wrote:
hyperpape wrote:Never would of thought to play like that. Perhaps I'll try it--I rarely play outside of my comfort zone in the opening.

Your comfort zone is the comfort zone of a 4k. If you want your opening to be the opening of a 3k, or a 1d, or a 5d or whatever, you have to take a step further!

I like this mentality. I thought I'd ask, though, do you suppose it's possible that you take a step backwards in an attempt to move forward?

I think it is certainly possible, but mostly in the way that anything is possible if you wait long enough. I try to regularly push myself to do things I wouldn't normally, and I have never felt that it was even disadvantageous in the short term for me to do so - I strongly believe that at my level or even higher, the comfort zone is largely a psychological trick that doesn't really correlate to a way of play I am good at. Whilst I might have a good experience of all the normal ways to play, I almost certainly also am playing some moves wrong (if I wasn't, my opening would be pro level), and reinforcing these mistakes in my mind.

One technique that I find enjoyable is, if my opponent plays something that I consider unusual and am not sure how to handle for either player, I play that way myself. By 'consider unusual' this is most often simple corner/side shapes such as 3-3 or 6-4 points. As white, this may involve mirroring the first couple of moves. I have never (ever!) felt disadvantaged by playing these things which I wouldn't normally, it doesn't hurt my game (which is itself meaningful), but it leads to me learning something and gives my opponent something to think about

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:20 am

amnal wrote:
hyperpape wrote:Never would of thought to play like that. Perhaps I'll try it--I rarely play outside of my comfort zone in the opening.

Your comfort zone is the comfort zone of a 4k. If you want your opening to be the opening of a 3k, or a 1d, or a 5d or whatever, you have to take a step further!

You couldn't be more wrong you are! I have the comfort zone of a 3kyu (big difference, y'know) because I used to be one for a long time.

Seriously, I agree with the advice, and I don't think just playing inside my comfort zone is a good idea.

Edit: what timing. I logged in to KGS, and found that I'd drifted to 3k in the last fwe days.

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Low approach against Komoku - revival?

Low approach against Komoku - revival?

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Re: Low approach against Komoku - revival?

Re: Low approach against Komoku - revival?

Re: Low approach against Komoku - revival?

Re: Low approach against Komoku - revival?

Re: Low approach against Komoku - revival?

Re: Low approach against Komoku - revival?

Re: Low approach against Komoku - revival?

Re: Low approach against Komoku - revival?

Re: Low approach against Komoku - revival?

Re: Low approach against Komoku - revival?