Pressured corner : is it alive ?

Tryphon · Post by **Tryphon** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:30 pm

I encountered this position in a handicap game : after 6, both my opponent and me thought Black live in the corner, and he tenukied. I thought it was still alive so I didn't play there until the endgame, where I played 8 to reduce the corner.

To my surprise, I actually killed him. Did he make a mistake or was it unavoidable ?

Since I am to it, is 6 the proper move ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ -------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . 5 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . 6 . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

tenuki.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:12 pm

Black can live.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Joseki $$ -------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . 7 . . | $$ , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . 6 . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

,

elsewhere.

This is usually how this position arises. Your :w6:

was fine.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Joseki $$ -------------------- $$ . . . . . . 9 . . . | $$ . . . 0 . . O 1 . . | $$ . . . . O . 2 X . . | $$ , . . . 8 7 X 5 . . | $$ . . . . . O . 4 3 . | $$ . . . . . . . O 6 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

and

are tesuji.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 Joseki (continued) $$ -------------------- $$ . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . O . . O X . . | $$ . . . . O . O X . . | $$ , . . . O X X X . 1 | $$ . . . . . O . O X . | $$ . . . . . . . O O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Now to show that Black is alive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Life $$ -------------------- $$ . . . . . 5 B 1 6 . | $$ . . . O . . O X 2 . | $$ . . . . O . O X . 4 | $$ , . . . O X X X . X | $$ . . . . . O . O X . | $$ . . . . . . . O O 3 | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

is tesuji. If you missed it, join the club.

You see the importance of :bc:

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Death $$ -------------------- $$ . . . . . . X 1 2 . | $$ . . . O . . O X 6 3 | $$ . . . . O . O X . 4 | $$ , . . . O X X X 7 X | $$ . . . . . O . O X . | $$ . . . . . . . O O 5 | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

is a mistake, which allows the tesuji of :w3:

.

Very clever of Black to live, eh?

Tryphon · Post by **Tryphon** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:33 am

Tricky...

Thanks a lot, I turned around and didn't see that at all.

I wouldn't have missed the tesuji at 2 in your before-the-last diagram, but I totally missed the two before :mrgreen:

(I had to put the stone to understand why they were tesuji).

We should have a "venerate" button for the likes of you :bow:

perceval · Post by **perceval** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:41 am

interesting, this position is known and dismissed as small life for Black, but they should put in huge red letters that you need to solve dan level tsumego to get this small life (i say dan level i am not sure but clearly those 3 tesuji almost in a row are several stones above me).

tj86430 · Post by **tj86430** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:55 am

Totally OT, but why is this white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Joseki $$ -------------------- $$ . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . W a . O X . . | $$ . . . . O . O X . . | $$ , . . . O X X X . . | $$ . . . . . O . O X . | $$ . . . . . . . O O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

better than a?

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:27 am

perceval wrote:you need to solve dan level tsumego to get this small life

B tenuki twice; what did you expect -- for B to play 20k moves and live in sente?

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:17 am

That's true of more corner positions than you know, Perceval. Every so often, the right variation comes up and you or I will just die with a "live" group.

gogameguru · Post by **gogameguru** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:36 am

tj86430 wrote:Totally OT, but why is this white:

$$B Joseki
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . W a . O X . . |
$$ . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ , . . . O X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Joseki $$ -------------------- $$ . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . W a . O X . . | $$ . . . . O . O X . . | $$ , . . . O X X X . . | $$ . . . . . O . O X . | $$ . . . . . . . O O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

better than a?

To answer a question with a question, which move gives white more influence over the top side of the board? And is white making any territory towards the top right corner?

Here's a similar variation to help you think about the marked stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 Black 11 changes little $$ -------------------- $$ . . . . 8 1 X 4 9 . | $$ . . . W . 2 O X 5 . | $$ . . . . O . O X . 7 | $$ , . . . O X X X . 3 | $$ . . . . . O . O X . | $$ . . . . . . . O O 6 | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Also, in typical Bill style, he has taught you a strong endgame sequence without telling you

.

David

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:44 am

Tryphon wrote:Tricky...

Thanks a lot, I turned around and didn't see that at all.

I wouldn't have missed the tesuji at 2 in your before-the-last diagram, but I totally missed the two before (I had to put the stone to understand why they were tesuji).

Well, I learned this joseki when I was 4 kyu, and I was clueless about the whole thing.

We should have a "venerate" button for the likes of you

Well, thank you.

And I see that a lot of people liked the post.

Just reporting what's in the book, folks. :-|

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:10 pm

Bill Spight wrote:Just reporting what's in the book, folks. :-|

That's the true sadness of our time. We have everything written down somewhere in books, but only few know the right time to reveal the wisdom from the right book ; )

Life In 19x19

Pressured corner : is it alive ?

Pressured corner : is it alive ?

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Re: Pressured corner : is it alive ?

Re: Pressured corner : is it alive ?

Re: Pressured corner : is it alive ?

Re: Pressured corner : is it alive ?

Re: Pressured corner : is it alive ?