Zen19s (4d) v.s. Chun-Hsun Chou (9P)

[1986]

[1986]

wow I'm speechless

zen was undefeated congrats to the zen team ,

its amazing

IMO:

a 9p should be 6 stones stronger than a 4d
but what do i know
but i guess that's about the right handicap considering the outcome

its not that big of a gap between amateurs and pros,
a 4d taking 6 stones against a 9p just doesn't sound right to me
maybe a 1p then it would make since...

but hey life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get

[SoDesuNe]

As far as I know a good 5D EGF can compete with a professional player on three stones. So what is KGS 4D (although Zen19S is almost 5D with a win ratio of 67%)? Maybe 3D/4D EGF? So I think six stones would be a bit too much. But then again, bots are far more stable in their strength and won't compromise in a difficult situation, which often occurs in handicap games.

[1986]

I'm talking specifically about 9p

But ugot a point I guess pro ranks ain't what they use to be. I assume a 9p can give at least 4 stones to 4p and win. Let alone a 4 Dan KGS

Now a days pro is pro.

But 9dan is the highest grade a pro can achieve any amateurs rank shouldn't be a issue with proper handicap 9 Dan should win

You have to be a good 5 Dan to play a 9p with 3 stones

[hyperpape]

As far as I know a good 5D EGF can compete with a professional player on three stones.

One data point: http://www.361points.com/blog/tag/ama-vs-pro/

[SoDesuNe]

I'm talking specifically about 9p

But ugot a point I guess pro ranks ain't what they use to be. I assume a 9p can give at least 4 stones to 4p and win. Let alone a 4 Dan KGS

Now a days pro is pro.

But 9dan is the highest grade a pro can achieve any amateurs rank shouldn't be a issue with proper handicap 9 Dan should win

You have to be a good 5 Dan to play a 9p with 3 stones

I don't think a 9p can give 4H to any other pro. There is - in my opinion - maybe one stone difference between being awarded a 1p and a 9p. And no I don't talk about the players, who go in the west to teach and thus become weaker or the ones who don't focus all their live on being a professional Go player.
What I mean is, I don't think Iyama Yuta is now eight stones stronger compared to his beginning Go career.


hyperpape
Yes, that kind of underlines my thesis ^^ Quite a few games ended because Black lost a big group, all the other games were pretty close. Now one can argue about the relative strength of Zen19S and human players. I don't know how Zen19S calculates Life-and-Death and if he frequently loses (handicap) games by getting killed, too. But as far as I know, a lack of reading skill is the first thing pros notice when playing against western players (and over-agressivess ^^).
By the way, can someone transcribe the time-limits of the games behind hyperpape's link? I think they are quite fast, aren't they?

[Mike Novack]

What we need to keep in mind is that not all that long ago (just a few years) many folks were saying they didn't think any of these programs could get to the point of being able to beat a pro even with nine stones.

PS -- What did you think of the style of play? If you didn't already know, enough to conclude "that can't be a humn, must be a bot." Or was it close enough to how a human might have played to pass that test?

[hyperpape]

hyperpape
Yes, that kind of underlines my thesis

I don't think this is does. These are European 6 dans, and they struggle on 3 stones. You'd expect the 5 dans to need 4 stones.

[yoyoma]

What we need to keep in mind is that not all that long ago (just a few years) many folks were saying they didn't think any of these programs could get to the point of being able to beat a pro even with nine stones.

PS -- What did you think of the style of play? If you didn't already know, enough to conclude "that can't be a humn, must be a bot." Or was it close enough to how a human might have played to pass that test?

I think the nature of handicap games make the usual bot style of play look a lot more natural. The bots love moyos and attacking and that fits the handicap games nicely.

But also I think this game Zen played quite nicely, there were not so many terrible looking "bot moves", such as pointless sentes.