115 - robinz v. 1986

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:52 pm

Obs:

Let's see if we can catch up a little here. First off it looks like Loons called in correctly on 1986's ko threat

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 3 . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X 5 4 9 X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . 8 O 6 . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . 7 O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O 2 | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O 0 . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If

, Black starts a direct ko immediately at :b8:

. I think my first ko threat for Black would be :b10:

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 3 . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X 5 4 . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O 6 . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . 7 8 O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . 0 9 a . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O 2 | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

So White holds back with this :w7:

. Black keeps on coming and after :w9:

cuts at

(or "a"?). I find it hard to say what is the best way to play here or how it will all work out. However, Black definitely has a more interesting situation than in the game IMHO. Good call Loons!

Anyway Black answered the threat and White retook the ko. How about the suggestion of playing P2 as a ko threat?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc at the marked stone; above ; at :w1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O B | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O 5 | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X 3 X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O 8 O X X 9 | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . 2 O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Remember the earlier comment on internal ko threats? White does not connect but instead answers :b2:

with

. This reduces the liberties on the lower Black group and makes capturing the two Black stones inside the White group an internal ko threat for White (expanding the group's liberties). Black has to throw in and White can recapture the ko. Of course White has to be committed to ignoring any Black ko threat after :w9:

. So Black has no internal ko threats and has to look elsewhere. Oops! The situation does not look good here for Black.

perceval · Post by **perceval** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:49 am

For the prisoner count business a neutral voice:
You need a convent ion to fix if the number in black is the number of stones in black: :b3:

are the stones captured by black or the nuéber of captured black stone.

It seems that the convention is that the number is the number of stones captured
:w62:

--

, W capture a stone but forgets to add it to the prisoners
:b63:

/

--

(correct)

--

??

--

(inversion)
:w68:

/:b69:: -- :w4:

(back to normal)
:w70:

--

(W captures and add to the B stones captured --correct)

move :w72:

/

--

move

1986 switch colors to :b4:

Then robin keeps the convention at :b75:

, captured 2 with stones to bring it to :w6:

BUT facetiously inverted the order to :b2:

which confuses the matter
for
:w76:

-- 1986 kept the wrong b4: :w2:

--

(+ 1 capture from B added to the w stones)
1986 corrects the number BUT still invert the colors to
:w78:

--

(+1 W capture added to the W stones which is not the convention)

So it seems that indeed robin is the one respecting the color convention

Your count should be :w7:

can t help with the ko (good luck to both its hard) but here are your prisoner count anyway

perceval · Post by **perceval** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:19 am

@ez4u:

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:25 am

Does Black even _have_ a ko threat here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm180 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X 1 | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X 3 X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O 4 O X X 5 | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . 2 O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I simply can't see anything White would respond to.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:48 am

perceval wrote:@ez4u:
Does that mean that it would be better for B to just protect at C2, removing all ko threat in the area, rather than playing a ko threat of his own ?
because
i B plays another ko thread, W answer, B take the ko, W play C2 he will have at least 1 more ko threat at E1 in the area.
As this is an approach ko for W maybe removing 2 ko threat is better than playing 1 threat for B?

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:16 am

Oops. Am I right in now thinking the C2 threat followup leads to a white-take-first approach ko for black?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | 0 . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | 9 . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | 8 O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | 4 3 1 X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . 6 . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | X 2 6 O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | O 1 O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | 3 4 X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . X 5 O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:17 am

To get an accurate count, post an SGF of the game up to the current move.
:w7:

= 7 W stones = ( :white:

) in robin's lid.
:b3:

= 3 B stones = ( :black:

) in 1986's lid.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:19 am

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:21 am

Because I clearly need to do more easy tsumego.

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:17 pm

1986: apologies, I thougt you understood the convention normally used here on L19; :w2:

represents 2 white stones as prisoners, and so on. Doing it this way is supposed to eliminate ambiguity, apparently :scratch:

EdLee: I am keeping an SGF version of the game to analyse on, and can assure you that the prisoner numbers I have been posting have been correct at all times. (The time I inverted the order of colours was not "facetious", as perceval says - although I don't take this as a slight and appreciate your post

- it was simply a random choice when I realised that 1986 had changed the count. I didn't bother to check the order they were in before.) If there is any dispute I am happy to post my SGF, but I believe 1986 agrees with me, since our differences are only in the colour, which it now turns out is to do with how we are interpreting the notation.

I will continue for now using the usual L19 convention as given by Ed, but if my opponent objects I will happily change (after all, it doesn't really matter

).

Oh, and @Loons, I'm glad that if I ever get to your level (which I rate as unlikely), this will be classed as an "easy tsumego" :lol:

(Yes, I realise, you probably are talking about some hypothetical problem many moves in the future, but even so - I admit I'm pretty lost here...)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm181 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Well, as I just said, in unhidden text no less, I feel way out of my depth here. But I think this simple capture is best. If white continues taking away my liberties in the lower right, I can win the ko, and in compensation for losing something somewhere to a ko threat, I can play G18 and create some fun interestingness. If he simply responds on top instead, then I think I will have gained a move and will be able to respond to one more of his ko threats than I would have been able to before.

Glad to see that we're now again attracting some stronger players as I no doubt go down in a blaze of not-quite-glory

1986 · Post by **1986** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:51 pm

So I got the colors switched cool cool cool. I'm ready when u are!
:tmbup:

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:02 am

Whoops, I made my move last night, but somehow managed to put it inside the hide tags with the comments :oops:

Let's try again:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm181 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X . X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

1986 · Post by **1986** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:33 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm182 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X 1 X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

robinz · Post by **robinz** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:45 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm183 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O 1 | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O X | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O X | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O . | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

1986 · Post by **1986** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:07 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm184 Prisoner Count $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . O X X O . . X X X | $$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . O . O X . . X | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X O X | $$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X O O O | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X O . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X O O O X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X O O O 1 | $$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X O X O O | $$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X O | $$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X | $$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Life In 19x19

115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986