Mysterious new vets tournament

[ez4u]

Is there a schedule for the next games in the Igo Masters Cup?

At this point in time not yet. However, watch this space!

[emeraldemon]

Déjà vu...

... all over again.

For those L19 readers not shaving yet (and that includes the women - no sexism here!), Cho-Kobayashi is a legendary rivalry, characterised by the vast number of games, from the days when great beasts roamed the go world. Go BOARDS were then twenty cubits wide and each black stone had to be hewn by each player by hand from the vast quarry of iNachi and each white stone involved a mighty duel with the whoring clam iMeretrix. Only the great and grumptious gods could watch these games atop the fabled Mount iFuji.

Now, however, you can see all these games in the equally fabled GoGoD database - and without the i. There are 131 games between them, of which three were pair go. Of the 128 "real" games, Cho has won 65 and Kobayashi 63.

Nice to see one of the great go rivalries continue. Two of the greatest players in the 20th century who were fortunate to be at their peaks at the same time. Makes me think of Genjo and Chitoku. Are there any other famous rivalries that involve so many games between the rivals?

I found in GoGod 302 (!) matches between Lee Changho and Cho Hun-yeon. I'm not sure if that's quite the same though, because Lee Changho won 60%, so it's not as close a rivalry. I also found 104 matches between Kato Masao and Kobayashi Koichi, and 110 between Kato Masao and Cho Chikun. Maybe it could be a 3-way rivalry?

[Bantari]

There is a new tournament starting in Japan next month (Feb 2010), and it baffles me in several ways. Others may wish to speculate.

First, it is for veterans, a first in Japan. China and Korea have veteran tournaments but these were introduced for a very specific reason. With the rise of the teenyboppers, many vets in C and K were wondering where the next bowl of rice was coming from. That's hardly been a problem in J, even with its bloated 9-dan population, but still one wonders whether this is a sign of things to come. Mystery 1.

However, the new event, the Go Masters Cup, is clearly not intended as an alms house. It is limited to players of 50 and up who hold or have held one of the major seven titles. These are people who have already made it big, and sometimes even have a nice pension from their title-winning exploits. Why would other, more needy, players sanction such an exclusive event? Mystery 2.

We can see what the sponsors might get out of this. Access to big names, and not too many players (11 in Term 1), so reducing the sponsorship bill mightily. But oldies only? Yesterday's men? Mystery 3, unless this is a touch of nostagia.

The biggest bafflement, Mystery 4, is the commercial goals of the sponsors. There are two. There is S T Corporation, which makes a wide range of household goods and Fumakilla which makes things like insecticides. What on earth is the association between go and fly spray and geriatrics? It's women in Japan who buy the hosuehold goods and pesticide cans, anyway. I sense a possible explanation in the fact that the semi-finals of this knockout event are to be held in Hiroshima. Hiroshima is the area of Japan that is probably the most go devout and full of the strongest amateurs. It may be that one or both of the companies has a big presence in Hiroshima, though as far as I know they are both headquartered in Tokyo. The executives may be go players from Hiroshima but these are companies with shareholders, not private fiefdoms. So there may even be hidden motives, such as finding a way to lobby the go-mad prime minister. One way or another, a bit of a mystery.

What do you make of this deuced problem, Watson? And, by the way, Mrs Hudson, we shan't be staying for tea.

Why I don't really know much about Japan and its culture, I will still say what I think. Lack of knowledge never stopped me before, so why start now?
So, on general principles...

General Idea #1:
Companies sponsor stuff when they expect some kind of gain from that.

Regardless of what they sell, and what the demographics of their customers are, these companies must came up with a way to make a return on their investment. It can mean many things, but from what I see the marketing wars and pressures are getting bigger and bigger, and so companies are fighting for smaller and smaller advantages and slivers of the pie. It would not surprise me, for example, if some marketing gurus out there thought that even if its women who but certain goods, advertising to the husbands and causing said husbands to exert some pressure like "Honey, why don't you buy that brand instead next time?" might result in some fraction of percentage in sales increase. And this, when properly calculated, might offset the expense of sponsorship.

Or maybe, as you said, they try to cater to the PM.
Or maybe there are some backroom deals which we will never know about.
Would not surprise me if it was all 3 and more...

General Idea #2:
Somebody is banking on the fact that such tournament will generate interest.

This is fundamental to the whole idea of sponsorship, and thus the corner stone of the previous idea. And I think this is a safe bet - I think people would be very interested to see the old-timers and the great has-beens duke it out on the board like in the good old times. With economy struggling as it does, nostalgia gets more and more powerful. But regardless of economy - I think the more pro tournaments the better for all of us. And the better for the pros as well, so it is a good thing, yes?

I just hope the idea will not fizzle out after one year.

[gowan]

In their prime Kobayashi Koichi and Cho Chikun almost completely dominated the three top titles in Japan:

Meijin

Cho held the title from 1980 through 84
Kobayashi held the title in '85 and from '88 through '95
Cho held the title from '96 through '99

For the 20 years from 1980 through 1999 either Cho or Kobayashi held the Meijin title except for three terms

Honinbo

Cho held the Honinbo title for 10 consecutive terms during 1989 through 1998 (a record run). During that time, when both players were busy winning almost all the big titles, Cho defeated Kobayashi three times in a row in the Honinbo title matches in '91, '92, and '93. Kobayashi never won the Honinbo title.

Kisei

Cho held the title '83 through '85, Kobayashi '86 through '93, Cho '94 and '96 through '99. In the 17 year span from '83 through '99 there was only one year when neither Cho nor Kobayashi held the Kisei title.

I think the rivalry of two such great, almost equally matched players is a remarkable thing. They were Kitani disciples together and career-long rivals. I'm happy to see them in the final of the veterans' tournament.

[John Fairbairn]

I think the rivalry of two such great, almost equally matched players is a remarkable thing. They were Kitani disciples together and career-long rivals. I'm happy to see them in the final of the veterans' tournament.

To reinforce gowan's point, of their 128 games Cho and Kobayashi played each other in 78 titlematch games. The vast majority of these were two-day games. This was not Mickey Mouse go. It was King Kong go.

It's a shame that the veterans' event final will be quickplay, but it's still a reminder of the great days. Virtually all the title games were given with extensive commentaries in Go World, incidentally.

[lovely]

It would have been interesting to see Kato take part in this. He once held four of the top seven titles in 1987 - during KobaCho's prime, as well as Takemiya's most successful period. A bigger feat than Cho U's quintuple in my opinion.