Go Back - Game 2

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perceval
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Re: Go Back - Game 2

Post by perceval »

Chew Terr wrote:Perceval: Personally, I prefer the obvious response instead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 4 . X . 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . 1 . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My reasoning is: if white takes this point, she threatens to separate and attack the two black stones. This means that white can steal the corner in sente, yielding a lot of free points. Instead, black can take the corner, mostly in sente, and threaten to turn around and attack the approaching white stones. The extension on the right is fairly big, but not as big as you might think, since only one of the right-side enclosures are facing it. Long story short though, the biggest thing in the opening (perhaps game) is group stability, so if there is a double-sente group stability move in the opening, nothing but an outright kill seems bigger to me.


get your point but i love B frameowrk here:
[hide]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 4 . X . 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . 8 . 1 . . 9 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

OC D4 looks silly ... do you consider this unplayable by B ?
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Re: Go Back - Game 2

Post by Redundant »

@Perceval

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 4 . X . 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . 8 . 1 . . 9 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not a huge fan of this for black. Black has two weak groups now, and even worse, they're right next to each other. Urgent before big ... yada yada yada.
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Chew Terr
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Re: Go Back - Game 2

Post by Chew Terr »

Redundant wrote:@Perceval

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 4 . X . 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . 8 . 1 . . 9 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not a huge fan of this for black. Black has two weak groups now, and even worse, they're right next to each other. Urgent before big ... yada yada yada.


That's exactly the response I was going to post. Additionally, white has territory in 2.5 corners and opportunities for expansion, while black is basically ONLY going to get territory in the top right, anytime soon. The weak groups black is saddled with are too negative to be compensated for by any current advantages. I mean, if white attacks the leftmost black group from above, the whole left side is looking optimistic. Or white could choose to expand in the right side to R8, and doing so threatens the bottom and right-side black stones. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but lately I've been realizing just HOW much I've been suffering for leaving stones unstable and weak.
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Re: Go Back - Game 2

Post by Redundant »

I've found that it sometimes helps to just keep a counter of your weak groups. If you have none, then you can play aggressively and invade. If you have just one, you should defend it before you can make another weak group. If you have two weak groups ... pray that they aren't at all near each other.
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perceval
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Re: Go Back - Game 2

Post by perceval »

Redundant wrote:I've found that it sometimes helps to just keep a counter of your weak groups. If you have none, then you can play aggressively and invade. If you have just one, you should defend it before you can make another weak group. If you have two weak groups ... pray that they aren't at all near each other.


interesting, i didnt realize that it even worse if they are close to each other. It makes perfect sense of course once spelled out.
Yes, urgent before big, but usually it s easy to assess that a play is big and difficult to assess how urgent soenthing is.
To me this is the true difficulty with that proverb
Chew Terr wrote:


That's exactly the response I was going to post. Additionally, white has territory in 2.5 corners and opportunities for expansion, while black is basically ONLY going to get territory in the top right, anytime soon. The weak groups black is saddled with are too negative to be compensated for by any current advantages. I mean, if white attacks the leftmost black group from above, the whole left side is looking optimistic. Or white could choose to expand in the right side to R8, and doing so threatens the bottom and right-side black stones. Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, but lately I've been realizing just HOW much I've been suffering for leaving sto
nes unstable and weak.

not harsh at all, to be fair i was already convinced by your first post above and i just pushed the discussion a bit to enter it further into my thick skull. :mrgreen:
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Re: Go Back - Game 2

Post by perceval »

as a consequence of the above .. i take back my own move and play the normal one:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 4 . X . 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . 1 . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Go Back - Game 2

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 4 . X . 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . 1 . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not getting a weak group here seems like a good idea, regardless of where white or black want to go with this game. Also an extension from top left. The ball is in black's court!
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Re: Go Back - Game 2

Post by cyclops »

I like go back. Maybe now perceval's move at the right.
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Re: Go Back - Game 2

Post by Loons »

How do we feel about kibitzing the moves we are thinking of, versus playing a move (including normal planning) and then kibitzing go-back-ing if it seems desirable? I was quite happy with perceval's move and post-discussion-go-back.
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Re: Go Back - Game 2

Post by cyclops »

Perceval motivated this move before.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 4 . X . 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . 1 . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Re: Go Back - Game 2

Post by Redundant »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 6 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


White prevents a double wing. High because I feel like it.
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Re: Go Back - Game 2

Post by cyclops »

I don't like W's reply to my B13. W's double wing needs to be invaded before he perfects his moyo. But if B invades at c14, W@c15 will make him heavy with too little space to extend comfortably. B will get a weak group. To prevent W's double wing I goback.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Next B a & b are miai.
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Post by EdLee »

As this is my first Go Back experience, please let me know if I cannot undo.
I revert :b13: back to R10 -- my reasons are below:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
(1) :b13: at R10 is a good move. It is the correct direction from B's upper right shimari, and it is a big point.
cyclops wrote:I don't like W's reply to my B13.
(2) Notice "B13" is also a co-ordinate on the board (x), so it is ambiguous. :b13: is more clear.
(3) :w14: at K16 is not a problem for B. It is a big point, a normal opening move.
cyclops wrote:W's double wing needs to be invaded before he perfects his moyo.
(4) Yes and No -- Yes, it's good if B does something about W's double wing.
No, W cannot "perfect" his moyo in 1 move, so it's not as bad as cyclops thinks.
cyclops wrote:But if B invades at c14, W@c15 will make him heavy with too little space to extend comfortably. B will get a weak group.
(5) I disagree. Here's why: yes, the 2-space jump to :b19: is a bit inefficient for B,
but this is still reasonable because B is invading (after getting the big point :b13:),
and the resulting B group is not very heavy and not very weak; it is OK.
This result is reasonable for both B and W:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
cyclops wrote:To prevent W's double wing I goback.
(6) Your :b13: approach at F17 is also a big move and is playable. But I prefer the original :b13: at R10 for the reasons above.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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perceval
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Re: Go Back - Game 2

Post by perceval »

This game seems really interesting, lots of discussion.
I doubt it will go very far because design by consensus is terribly slow (i live in Switerland ... ), but i will learn for sure. :geek:

I will not go back on Ed Lees move but i wondered after trying to play R10 at move 11 if :b13: couldnt be high ? (ie :b13:@Q10 instead of R10 ?)

i like Loons suggestion of a bit of kibitz before an undo to avoid strings of undos in the future.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

perceval wrote:if :b13: couldnt be high ? (ie :b13:@Q10 instead of R10 ?)
Yes, :b13: is also playable high at Q10, but I prefer low at R10 because of the cash:
there's no giant moyo anywhere -- 3/4 of the board is cash: upper right, lower left, bottom, lower right -- so, just take cash. :mrgreen:
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