115 - robinz v. 1986

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topazg
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by topazg »

xDragon wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . 1 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . 2 O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


i dont see how b refutes this and has the corner live?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | 7 5 . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | 4 6 O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | 3 O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | 1 O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


or...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | 8 7 X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . 6 X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | . 4 5 O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | 3 0 O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | 9 O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | 1 O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | O X X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | 1 O X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | 2 O X O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X O O 3 X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


or...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . 7 X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | . 4 5 O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | 3 . O 9 X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | 6 O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | 1 O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . 2 8 . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm192 Prsioner Count :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . 1 O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


ok everything is going according to plan, i got a nice lead and i plan to keep it, 

when i look at the board im feeling great!, 
i got 3 1/2 corners, and access to the center, i got options everywhere

time to tighten up and stay focused :rambo:

i like rambo lol
standing still means going backwards
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by xDragon »

find it interesting after topaz's showing of the refutation, he now thinks he has the corner with the same move i thought of. wonder if robinz will see it
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topazg
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by topazg »

I make robinz about 10 points ahead if he sees it, and about 25 points behind if he doesn't. Both leads should be largely unassailable with what's left of the game, so :b93: could be a really game deciding move.
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Koroviev »

I can barely contain my excitement. I hope he sees the move. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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ez4u
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by ez4u »

perceval wrote:
rarely seen a game so intense :clap: ... because here we have strong players giving us "the solution" and we see them struggle and miss opportunities and then have a second chance ...
Here if i understand correctly W should have ignored and proceed with the ko
i must say i would not do much better i think this is really hard :blackeye:

I agree that this has been a great game. Both players are to be congratulated, and thanked for entertaining us so well! :tmbup:
Dave Sigaty
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- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Sevis
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Sevis »

Personally, I'd still try a 3-3 invasion as black... It feels just big enough to still be able to live. After the bottom-left is settled:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm201 Prsioner Count :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . 8 . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 9 3 4 . b O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . 7 6 O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . 0 . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . c O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O a . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


a, b and c also look fairly big.

I should count this when I have time...
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Continued from topazg's diagram...
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | X X 2 O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | O O O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | 4 3 X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | 5 6 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

There's still a ko, but I don't see any good ko threats for white.
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Sevis »

Dusk Eagle:
Aren't there three at the top that threaten to kill?
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Chew Terr
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Chew Terr »

Sevis:
Dusk Eagle wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Continued from topazg's diagram...
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . 0 O X . . O X X X 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . a . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | X X 2 O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | O O O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | 4 3 X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | 5 6 1 O 8 . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

There's still a ko, but I don't see any good ko threats for white.

Chew: I added to the diagram. Basically, white can kill those three stones, but black will have miai 'a' to live after 10... I think.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

I so can't wait to read all these posts once the game is over - although it'll probably take me months to digest them :lol:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm193 Prisoner Count :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | 1 O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


As already discussed. My current opinion is that this seems to even work, although I'm far from certain that I've not missed something. But, as it's clearly sente, if it doesn't then it's no worse than a lost ko threat, so there's no way I'm not playing it.

That makes it twice in this game that I've made a move at the 1-2 point to give myself more effective liberties in a capturing race (move 163 was the other time) - I wonder if this is a common technique, as I've not really come across it (although I do know there is a proverb that "strange things happen at the 1-2 point"). Of course, it could be that these moves simply don't work ;-)
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Why :w1: isn't a good ko threat.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . 5 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . 4 O X X X 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 6 . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | X X X O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | O O O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X O X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X . . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Sevis
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Sevis »

Dusk Eagle, Chew Terr:
Ahh, I see, thanks.
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm194 :w28: :b8:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

i don't like not having sente lets see where he plays next, E18 maybe
standing still means going backwards
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ez4u
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by ez4u »

Dusk Eagle wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Continued from topazg's diagram...
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | X X 2 O . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | O O O . X X X X . X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | 4 3 X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | 5 6 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

There's still a ko, but I don't see any good ko threats for white.


The ko is a pretty neat idea. I completely missed it. I am thinking that this may be the biggest ko threat...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X X O O X X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | X X X O . . . . 3 . . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | O O O . X X X X 1 X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | X O O . X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X O X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | . X X O O O . . O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O X O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | . X O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White may be ahead after this.
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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