Close game - opening
-
Koroviev
- Lives with ko
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:27 am
- Rank: 6k
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 38 times
- Been thanked: 35 times
Close game - opening
Here's a quick game I played recently, and won by .5 after a few blunders in the endgame.
Since it's blitz pace there are many reading errors of course, but I'd appreciate any comments on my opening, since I feel I fell a bit behind there, despite standard play from my opponent.
I responded to the early 3-3 invasion in a slightly different way than usual, but I don't think it worked out too well.
Many thanks!
Since it's blitz pace there are many reading errors of course, but I'd appreciate any comments on my opening, since I feel I fell a bit behind there, despite standard play from my opponent.
I responded to the early 3-3 invasion in a slightly different way than usual, but I don't think it worked out too well.
Many thanks!
-
amnal
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 589
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:42 am
- Rank: 2 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- Been thanked: 114 times
Re: Close game - opening
6: It is perhaps normal to play on the right side (either R14 or R10 area) because this is where black can play to make a great large scale shape. You don't have to though, this move is not bad.
14: Quite bad. Forces black to get strong, whilst making the white stone weak. Did this really help your shape? Black could, for instance, still play the 3-3 invasion and the C6 stone doesn't seem to help.
If you want to protect the corner, just play C5. This is a much better shape that doesn't make black strong, but does protect the corner better. The other normal move is to play G3, both seem fine.
16: You coudl have played here straight away. Do you think the C6 exchange helped you play here?
18: Good, this is a very big move in just the right place to hinder black's framework.
22: This shape (two large knights moves from a 4-4 stone) is usually not great because it doesn't really protect the corner from the 3-3 invasion. That means that one of the moves is arguably wasted. You also leave an invasion point at J17 later.
The problem is that you have tried to fix two weaknesses (corner, side gap) whilst making territory - but this stretches too far and doesn't do either of these things! I think it is easiest to play E17 (which protects the corner), then if black does something in the H17 gap you can attack him without worrying about losing the corner as well.
32: Quite bad. Black gets the left side, you get 1 stone.
It is normal (and better here) to just play B15. When black plays B17, you can protect your weakness. Unfortunately you end up with bad shape because of the aforementioned double-ogeima. This is basically why the second large knights move was a bad move.
You can try to play differently earlier to hurt black's corner, but it is very hard to do so when both of your follow up stones (G17 and C13) are far away.
58: I think this is bad. Q18 is a single stone (though a relatively large one
), and it was very slow for black to bother capturing it like this. I think it is better to play O14 and prevent black from stepping easily into your moyo.
Comments stop here because you specified opening, and the middle game is beginning.
14: Quite bad. Forces black to get strong, whilst making the white stone weak. Did this really help your shape? Black could, for instance, still play the 3-3 invasion and the C6 stone doesn't seem to help.
If you want to protect the corner, just play C5. This is a much better shape that doesn't make black strong, but does protect the corner better. The other normal move is to play G3, both seem fine.
16: You coudl have played here straight away. Do you think the C6 exchange helped you play here?
18: Good, this is a very big move in just the right place to hinder black's framework.
22: This shape (two large knights moves from a 4-4 stone) is usually not great because it doesn't really protect the corner from the 3-3 invasion. That means that one of the moves is arguably wasted. You also leave an invasion point at J17 later.
The problem is that you have tried to fix two weaknesses (corner, side gap) whilst making territory - but this stretches too far and doesn't do either of these things! I think it is easiest to play E17 (which protects the corner), then if black does something in the H17 gap you can attack him without worrying about losing the corner as well.
32: Quite bad. Black gets the left side, you get 1 stone.
It is normal (and better here) to just play B15. When black plays B17, you can protect your weakness. Unfortunately you end up with bad shape because of the aforementioned double-ogeima. This is basically why the second large knights move was a bad move.
You can try to play differently earlier to hurt black's corner, but it is very hard to do so when both of your follow up stones (G17 and C13) are far away.
58: I think this is bad. Q18 is a single stone (though a relatively large one
Comments stop here because you specified opening, and the middle game is beginning.
- cyclops
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 801
- Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 3:38 pm
- Rank: KGS 7 kyu forever
- GD Posts: 460
- Location: Amsterdam (NL)
- Has thanked: 353 times
- Been thanked: 107 times
- Contact:
Re: Close game - opening
66: locally I prefer the shoulderhit L4. B is so low it is easy to keep him low.
globally I would play on the border on your moyo's. O9 for example
142: @J14 and he wll get bad shape
162: @N2 is much better shape. After this move there is no need to run with this group.
164: better to attack around F5
226:E4 is obviously better
247: @M8 will give you headache at best.
globally I would play on the border on your moyo's. O9 for example
142: @J14 and he wll get bad shape
162: @N2 is much better shape. After this move there is no need to run with this group.
164: better to attack around F5
226:E4 is obviously better
247: @M8 will give you headache at best.
- Joaz Banbeck
- Judan
- Posts: 5546
- Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
- Rank: 1D AGA
- GD Posts: 1512
- Kaya handle: Test
- Location: Banbeck Vale
- Has thanked: 1080 times
- Been thanked: 1434 times
Re: Close game - opening
jts wrote:...
14: Remember the scene in the Matrix where the weaselly guy says, "After a while, you don't even see the numbers anymore. Now I just see blonde, redhead, blonde..."? The go board is like that. I don't want you to see black stones and white stones anymore...
That's a great metaphor. I think that I'm going to plagarize it frequently.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
- EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Close game - opening
Some comments: 
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
- Numsgil
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 614
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:07 am
- Rank: 1 Kyu KGS
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Numsgil
- Has thanked: 28 times
- Been thanked: 65 times
Re:
EdLee wrote:Nope. There's almost no "always" and almost no "never" in Go. Almost. Usually. Maybe.jts wrote:And you never, ever touch weak stones
One situation where you might need to touch weak stones is if it's the only way to close their escape to the rest of the board. eg: if a cap leaves an elephant eye weakness for the weak group to run through, you're probably better off putting the stone closer and doing some sort of diagonal hit, especially if it forms good shape (one or two space jump, or or two space knight's jump) with your walls on either side.
I can maybe put together a diagram to explain this point.
- jts
- Oza
- Posts: 2664
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:17 pm
- Rank: kgs 6k
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 310 times
- Been thanked: 634 times
Re: Re:
Numsgil wrote:EdLee wrote:Nope. There's almost no "always" and almost no "never" in Go. Almost. Usually. Maybe.jts wrote:And you never, ever touch weak stones
One situation where you might need to touch weak stones is if it's the only way to close their escape to the rest of the board. eg: if a cap leaves an elephant eye weakness for the weak group to run through, you're probably better off putting the stone closer and doing some sort of diagonal hit, especially if it forms good shape (one or two space jump, or or two space knight's jump) with your walls on either side.
I can maybe put together a diagram to explain this point.
I take it goes without saying that all the rules we're laying out in go have a big asterisk that say "by always we mean sometimes." But maybe this can't be said enough.
As for the two-space extension group: if Koroviev hadn't attached, and hadn't bungled the upper left 3-3 invasion, and hadn't invaded in that tiny space at
(a lot of "ifs"
is a bad move. If, on the other hand, B also had c13, B's position is fairly secure and, even if c6 is tactically not quite right, the general idea of strengthening both B and W locally would be potentially quite good.(By the way, Koroviev, these guys have been playing go for much longer than I have, so if ultimately they say touching c7 is fine, maybe touching c7 is fine...
- jts
- Oza
- Posts: 2664
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:17 pm
- Rank: kgs 6k
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 310 times
- Been thanked: 634 times
Re:
EdLee wrote: See amnal's note.
amnal wrote: Forces black to get strong
I can't speak for amnal, but isn't forcing B to get stronger quite savvy, if B is already strong? That's what overconcentrated shape is.
-
amnal
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 589
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:42 am
- Rank: 2 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- Been thanked: 114 times
Re: Re:
jts wrote:EdLee wrote: See amnal's note.amnal wrote: Forces black to get strong
I can't speak for amnal, but isn't forcing B to get stronger quite savvy, if B is already strong? That's what overconcentrated shape is.
Good question.
---
Point 1)
It is certainly true that 'if white is strong, it may be a good way to play to make him stronger whilst benefiting yourself. White does not gain anything, but black gets whatever benefit he devised'.
However, in this game white forgot the 'whilst benefiting yourself'. He spends one sente move which a) makes black stronger than before, and b) gains him absolutely nothing unless he spends another move to save his stone. If he does not spend another move (for instance, drawing back), black can probably just play the 3-3 invasion and white's wall is worthless because white has forced black to make his group unusually strong.
So, we can say that white's move is bad unless he plays another move in the area. The obvious 'another move' is to just draw back, but in this case white has gote and has not gained anything that he would not have gained by just playing this 'draw back' move in the first place. The contact stone has absolutely no value other than making the opponent stronger.
In this shape, white takes gote, but now can aim at a,b,c etc. as appropriate. In the game, he removes most of his options but does not gain anything for it.
Because of this, white is not making his opponent 'strong' but 'unnecessarily strong'. This makes the move bad.
---
Point 2)
It is also worth pointing out that, whilst black's shape is good and cannot be immediately attacked, it is not truly strong (perhaps we might say 'strong but not thick'?). Imagine, for instance, this common side-of-board shape:
In this shape, white's stones are safe and fairly strong, but what happens if he plays the 3-3 invasion? He can perhaps devise a way to legitimately do so, but not without cost, as black's wall is now perfectly placed to attack the suddenly weak group on the side. My quick search found almost no professional games where the pro chose to dive into the corner without having some easy way out for the group on the side. Even where the professional did weaken the group significantly, he is always forced to play slow moves to prevent it being severely attacked, or has to give up significant profit in the ensuing fight.
This is another reason why making black strong in the game was bad. Although he was already technically strong, his strength was the kind that is liable to change suddenly. By settling the situation without protecting the corner, you risk a big loss as it turns out you've made him thick where he was not before.
Edit:
Here is a nice game where one player dives into the corner without being alive on the side, leaving his opponent a strong attack. This kind of thing is why the side shape is not really thick. I hope it is okay to post games from GoGoD.
wasn't necessarily a mistake, but it's certainly inconsistent with
, why not marry it and play S8? Remember, weak, invading groups need to stay light. Randomly connecting worthless stones to your group only reduces your flexibility, even if it's sente.
is precisely that C7 and C13 are miai to make a 2-space jump to settle.