fuseki question - tight pincer follow up

perceval · Post by **perceval** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:05 am

Hi, i just played a game when my opponent played a tight pincer on my approach, then (diqg is clearer)then approqch my hoshi stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i thought this approach worked really well with the pincer stone:
if i extend on the right its just the good distance:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc good B set up $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 5 . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . 4 . . 1 . . . . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

if i play the low pincer myself :Bc: against work well:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc good for B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 5 . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the end i played a high pincer (see below), no idea about the joseki here, was it a good idea ??
was the sequence played ok ? (ie did i blocked on the good side, was :w4:

a good idea to start with?)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc what do you think ? $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 7 O . . . 2 . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . 5 6 . 1 . . . . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

then i played :w8:

at a which was stoopid methink i guess b was the move ?

thanks for your ideas :study:

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:47 am

He might get a bit of a moyo by playing as you suggest, but you can remember that you are getting solid points. Moyos can be reduced to a lower number of points than they appear.

If you don't want him to get a moyo, then consider another move (eg. jumping out) instead of diving into the 3-3.

pwaldron · Post by **pwaldron** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:15 am

As Kirby says, you are getting solid points too. Count it up and you'll see black has a claim on about 25 points. You have 20'ish points in your two corners and you have sente. There's still scope for action in black's area, but things are about even right now. Just keep playing a good game.

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:13 pm

Some thoughts:

You reasoning reeks of jealousy. You are jealous of black getting something at the bottom, even though you're getting two corners.

Try to ban jealousy from your game! It is one of the great amateur weaknesses, IMO.

Given the low strong position of the :bc:

stone in this diagram, your first thought here should be: Do not pincer! Pincering here allows black to use his strength.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

in your second diagram is a mistake, it should be one to the left. It introduces weaknesses, and Black wants to stay as far away as possible from his strong lower right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc is hard to handle $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . X 1 . . . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Lets look at some diagrams:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc something will give $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 2 . X 5 . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . 4 X 1 . 7 6 . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . 3 . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc white takes a huge corner $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 2 . X . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . 5 X 1 4 . . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . X 7 3 6 . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc reduction $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 7 . X . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . X 1 8 . . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . X 4 3 2 . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The low pincer would be a mistake:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc black's dream $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 5 . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is exactly what black wants. White is losing this game fast.

The game pincer is also wrong:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc black mistake $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 7 O . . . 2 . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . 5 6 . 1 . . . . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But

is a mistake, and white got away with it. Black should split:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc how to attack $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . 5 . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 2 . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

has become a huge burden within just a few moves

Post by **Solomon** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:21 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 5 . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . 4 . . 1 . . . . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is fine for you (and for Black; it's fair).

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:56 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . 2 3 . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . 6 5 1 . . . . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O 6 2 3 . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . 4 1 . . . . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A followup question: How about the attachment here. Aiming for either of these joseki. I have a hard time telling when black is overcondensed by this sort of thing and when it's ideal for him. Since taking the corner is good enough to let black build a framework, is this still good, or is it giving too much away?

gogameguru · Post by **gogameguru** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:21 am

Here white can still invade at 'a' later. I won't repeat an explanation because Logan already explained it well recently in this thread: viewtopic.php?p=68958#p68958

If black plays 'b' as you suggested white also has a number of ways to invade, as Herman has pointed out.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 5 b , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . 4 . . 1 . . . a . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For that reason black will also consider playing like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . a . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . 4 . . 1 . . 5 . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can play moves like 'a' (above) to reduce black's position later, so there's no reason to be jealous.

There are openings where white even sets out to make black create this sort of position and cause uncertainty. Now black isn't sure about how to play 7 - 'a' or 'b'?. (if black plays 'b' white might play 'c' next.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . b . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . 1 . . a . . 5 . 4 . . c . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So in other words, this opening is fine for white.

Regarding Chew Terr's question:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . 2 3 . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . 6 5 1 a . . . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If this is the plan, black 4 could be at 'a' (above) (a sacrificing tactic to make black even more over concentrated on the bottom).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . 2 3 . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . 6 . 1 4 7 . . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . 5 . 8 9 . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O 5 O X 2 . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O 4 X O X a . . B . O X X O . . | $$ | . . 7 6 X 3 O X . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The reason why white might prefer not to do this here is because of the potential invasion later (after white just played 'b'). And if black chooses not to allow the invasion with the low move (at 'a' in the earlier diagrams) black is still slightly over-concentrated.

If the rest of the board supports it, this sacrifice could be a great opening strategy. Just try not to use over-concentration strategies too often/enthusiastically because sometimes you're erasing a future invasion, which helps the opponent's difficult position improve slightly.

I still prefer this result for white though, it just takes some of the subtlety out of the position by settling everything locally.

perceval · Post by **perceval** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:53 am

Thanks a bunch for the very detailled answers.
i thought i was getting better at controlling kyuish greed :cry:

But maybe this greed comes from the lack of redction skill i have: i would not havwe tought of the various reduction technique you mentionned. i can count and realize that the exchange is fair, but to me B formation would be easier to grow.
i see thats not the case

thanks again you answered with details i dint even know i should ask

Life In 19x19

fuseki question - tight pincer follow up

fuseki question - tight pincer follow up

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Re: fuseki question - tight pincer follow up

Re: fuseki question - tight pincer follow up

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Re: fuseki question - tight pincer follow up

Re: fuseki question - tight pincer follow up

Re: fuseki question - tight pincer follow up