115 - robinz v. 1986

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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm239 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X . O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . X . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . 1 . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . . O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Seems the simplest and best way to stay connected. The alternative was N11, but then I'd have to play here next move anyway after white protects - so it's better for me to play M11 straight away, just in case I later get the opportunity to play at N13 myself.
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm240 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X . O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . X . . 1 . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . . O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


this is good shape
standing still means going backwards
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm241 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X 1 O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X . . . . X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . . O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Hmm, 1-point gote eh? But, looking around, I guess that's really what we're down to? *sigh* So this is a 1-point gote of my own. Well, reverse sente actually ;-) As would have been J10 or H8.

I'm too lazy to do a proper count myself now, but CGoban score estimate says white is ahead 10.5, and it's late enough in the game that it's not going to be out by more than a few points (it's still marking a few points as being worth points when they're clearly going to be dame, but roughly the same number for each side, and certainly not a discrepancy of 11 in white's favour). We're close enough to the end that I'll play out the game anyway, but it's a shame for such an exciting game to end in this fashion :)

(Actually, I only just remembered the half-point kos - there's no way I'm actually playing those out unless somehow the game depends on them, but at least there are two so we can pass over them quickly.)
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm242 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . . , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X . . . 1 X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . . O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


establishing solid connections
standing still means going backwards
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm243 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . 1 , O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X . . . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . . O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Meh. Let's just play a few dull endgame moves to end this (while silently praying for a miracle)...

(Side note: one of my first instincts was to play H12, but on closer reflection it looks to be worth pretty much zero points...)
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Marcus
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Marcus »

Just to prove how bad my counting is ... I did a quick pass at counting this board from here, and got:

W+6.5 (B - 93, W - 99.5)

I'll wait until the end to see how close that is to the actual score ...
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lightvector
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by lightvector »

My rough count for on-board points Black ~94, White ~100 + 6.5. So, white wins by around 12.
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm244 Prisoner Count :w35: :13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X 1 O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X . . . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . . O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


im blocking off territory and establishing a more solid connection
standing still means going backwards
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm245 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X 1 . . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . . O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Initially I was deciding between the 1-point reverse sente move at J8, and the 2-point gote at F5. (Theoretically I believe these should be worth the same, but I decided the gote was better here as it was actually one point better for me, and at this very late stage of the game I can't believe sente is worth more than one point.) But then I saw some moves in this area that could also be in the running for "best move" now. This move I've played is actually "double sente", in a rather perverse very-very-late-endgame kind of way :lol: If white plays a gote move elsewhere, I can gain another point with K9 (and be threatening to gain a further point still), and if white got this point, he'd be "threatening" the 1-point move at J11. So I suspect this is the right move to play, and therefore have played it.

Although my heart's not really in it - if I can somehow play the rest of this endgame absolutely perfectly, and my opponent messes up a little, I'll still probably lose by 4 points or so :sad: At least I can aim to lose by less than komi, to claim that I won on the board ;-)
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm246 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X 1 . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . . O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


keeping it simple here no need for fancy moves
standing still means going backwards
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm247 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . . O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X . 1 . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


OK, he responded. I think I'll take that 2-point gote now.
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emeraldemon
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by emeraldemon »

So I think that move is 1.5 points, or 3 points gote. First, if black plays first, it's gote, but with a sente followup push (actually I think Bill would say the 3-4 exchange is "ambiguous", but it counts the same as sente I think):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Black first
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X 1 3 4 O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . . O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Similarly, if white plays first it's gote with a sente followup:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 White first
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X 3 O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . 4 X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X 1 . . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . . O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X . . . O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


there's a 3 point swing between these two, so it's 1.5 miai counting, slightly larger than the 2 point gote.
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm248 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . . O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X . X 1 O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


now we are entering the last little bit of endgame, again im keeping everything simple just blocking off the last little bit of territory
standing still means going backwards
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm249 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . . O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X 1 X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Not really much point in saying anything here - or, I guess, from here until the end of the game (which can't be long away).
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm250 Prisoner Count :w35: :b13:
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O X . X . X X O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X O X . X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | . . . O 1 X . X . X X O O X X X X O X |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . X O . . O . . X X X |
$$ | . . O . O X . X X O O O O . O X . . X |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . X . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . X O . X . X . X |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . O . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O X , X . . . X O O . X X X X X . X |
$$ | . . X X X . . X X O . O X . . . X . X |
$$ | . X X O . . . . O O . O O X X . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X X X O X . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X O . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | X X . X X X O O X X . . O . O X . X . |
$$ | X . X O O O . O O , . . . O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X O . O . . . . O . . O . O X X . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . . . . . . . . O X O X |
$$ | O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O O O |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


solid connection
standing still means going backwards
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