132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

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tj86430
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Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Post by tj86430 »

I need to think about this for a while

There are so many tempting spots (in random order):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . j . . a . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . j . . . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . g , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . h . . . . . . . . . . i . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . d . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm pretty sure that one of these is if not best then at least a very good choice. But which to choose?

a: extends and attacks but beckons invasion
b, e: claims corner while preparing an attack on the lone white stone
c: pretty much captures the white stone and connects the two black groups
d: natural extension from both corners
f, h: pincers the white stone while preparing to extend and pincer the other
g: splits the left side
i: deepends the right side while attacking the two white stones
j: a more peaceful extension preparing for a
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

My gut feel is that those 3 stones in the upper right need to be a little stronger. I'd put the two marked points at the top of my short list of candidates.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . X X C . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . C X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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tj86430
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Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Post by tj86430 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I decided to go with my first instinct. I don't wont my top-right group to become a target, I believe this takes care of that. There probably are bigger points on the board, and this may not be urgent, but I prefer to play safe here. (Also I couldn't really decide what would be best if I played elsewhere)
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Kirby
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Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O 7 X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think that this is an important spot in this shape. I'll try to get as much benefit as I can in the local area.
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Loons
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Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Post by Loons »

I have vague suspicion that there was a joseki here that tj was half-remembering and I am hopefully remembering.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Something like this
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 6 4 2 . . |
$$ , . . 7 O 5 X 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Not sure how relevant this trick/refutation is here.
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 2 . . |
$$ , . . . O 4 X 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 1 6 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
Where :b5: & :w6: reversed is normally being tricked.

I feel white's game result is too good. Perhaps one of Joaz' moves would have been a sufficient recovery.
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tj86430
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Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Post by tj86430 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 8 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I know this is terrible shape, but nothing else seems to work.
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Kirby
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Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O X X 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I wonder if he'll give me sente. I guess even if he doesn't, I still get potential for greater local benefit.
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tj86430
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Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Post by tj86430 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . 0 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Only move. I hope I haven't missed anything
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Kirby
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Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Again... Will I get sente?
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lorill
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Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Post by lorill »

Kirby wrote:
Again... Will I get sente?

I'd bet that you will, but you shouldn't count on it.
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tj86430
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Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Post by tj86430 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Relying on my previous read.

He got a big corner and I got absolute safety and more or less secure territory on the side. I might have done better, but I'm not dissatisfied. I suspect he will play on the top next. Then I will have to decide, several of the points in my earlier post are still interesting. Perhaps deepening the right side.
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Kirby
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Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 3 . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yay, he gave me sente. I just hope this is sharp, enough.
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tj86430
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Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Post by tj86430 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I still have no clue what's best, but let's put some pressure on his two lonely stones and see which way he runs (if at all).
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Kirby
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Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . 5 . X . . . . . , . . . O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Must...


not...


give...


up...


initiative...



I think this is what Magicwand means by "flow". I can't let him push me around. I need to do the pushing if I am under a 4 stone handicap.
be immersed
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tj86430
Gosei
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Re: 132 Kirby vs. tj86430 (4-stone hcp)

Post by tj86430 »

Are you trying to intimidate me with a bunch of hidden comments? :razz: (not working)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
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I think I must answer, otherwise by group will soon be in trouble.

If he plays around D10, I will continue on lower right. If not, I will decide when I see what he does.

So far I'm reasonably happy. The game has developed peacefully, which is fine by me, since I don't really like complex fights against stronger players.
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