3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

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Jordus
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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Post by Jordus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm83 Move 83 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , X X X X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So the bottom right corner for black is now dead... the right side group is now in jeopardy. There is a great move to play for their left corner now but I can't because we will lose the entire right side. So I will play to save the right side :(

here is why the right side is in danger if :b1: is played elsewhere:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . 1 O . X . . O . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . 4 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , X X X X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm thinking...
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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Post by Jordus »

Sigh right after I posted the move I see i might have been a little too ambitious.... we'll see .....
I'm thinking...
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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Post by Magicwand »

is it unethical to play mind game?
making your opponent curious and disturb their thinking by posting empty hidden?

anyway..we were successful last few moves.
now i wanna try this again by attacking the group on right.

i realized that myself playing correctly will not win the game.
we have better chance of winning when i play overplay.

it doesnt sound logical but i think it is true.

group on right can not be killed. but it has some aji where their weakest link will play unexpected wrong moves. if i keep this offensive moves they we have better chance of winning because if we make mistake then we dont capture their group but if they make mistake they will kill their group. mathmatically sound theory. ;)
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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Post by Violence »

... we let our corner die... in sente... without even peeping at the cut to gain more aji.

Man... this is the first thing I saw when I woke up. I'm facepalming.

Magicwand must be ridiculously happy his overplay paid off. I guess this means he's going to overplay more, since the move doesn't get around back to me for a few turns.

Well two can play. His lower side stones are looking thin, and I'm pretty pissed off. Let's see what happens when I make a huge mess.
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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Post by Marcus »

Not for the players:
Violence wrote:... we let our corner die... in sente... without even peeping at the cut to gain more aji.

Man... this is the first thing I saw when I woke up. I'm facepalming.

Magicwand must be ridiculously happy his overplay paid off. I guess this means he's going to overplay more, since the move doesn't get around back to me for a few turns.

Well two can play. His lower side stones are looking thin, and I'm pretty pissed off. Let's see what happens when I make a huge mess.


LOL, this is gonna be interesting.
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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Post by padic »

Heh, with players starting to figure out the metagame and playing cutthroat rengo instead of "properly", this game is becoming very entertaining for the spectators. (There are always normal Malkovich games to turn to for careful, proper play..) I wonder whether things will at some point turn ugly enough for the weaker players to start using the forcing moves trick.

And for the weaker players when they're reading through the comments after the game: thanks for subjecting yourselves to this! Criticism from players actually involved in the game seems a lot more brutally honest than the criticism go players normally give. (Not that reviewers tend to lie, the difference is more in the brutality than in the honesty.) I know I'd make silly mistakes too if I were in your shoes :lol:.
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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Post by Phelan »

I'm still not home, will post tonight or tomorrow. Sorry forthe delay.
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Post by Phelan »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm84 Move 84 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . O . . . O X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , X X X X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trying to get some influence towards the top to attack that lone stone and threaten a huge moyo in the middle. I think we can't stop black from having a big corner now, and the right group looks alive.
There's still a placement tesuji at a, I think, but I'm not sure what to do with it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm84 Tesuji?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , X X X X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Post by Violence »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm85 Move 85 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . O X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , X X X X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sente moves to prepare for the attack later. We first have to separate these groups.
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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm86 Move 86 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . O X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , X X X X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O X W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Post by Magicwand »

ok...next move will be atari. and take stone.
then weakest link will play...(that is always intresting)
i am guessing he will play left corner.

this is crazy game because i do not know what my team will play!!!!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm86 Move 86 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . O X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , X X X X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . O . 2 O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O X 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Thinking, move to come later.

Trying to decide if Violence did that just because it was sente to keep the bottom broken up, or if there's some way to get a ko or something...
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm87 Move 87 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . O X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , X X X X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . X O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



OK, I did a bunch of reading and I'm pretty sure Violence played that just to cut off the white stones in sente. Q2 is the move to try and capture white, but it doesn't work. We're one liberty short. (left as an exercise for the reader) I think m2 would be sente for us against those white stones, but it doesn't (at the moment, anyway) seem to gain us much beyond the move Violence already played. We have a lot of ko threats in this area.

Then I thought about where we can get points. I counted and I think black is ahead as long as no one gets points in the center. F11 threatens to eat the white stones in the middle while helping our lonely stone. I was going to play this but it seems like white at D3 gets points on the bottom in sente. Hence my move. We have a followup to this move at G4; if we get that, maybe we can get a good attack on the lower center white stones.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm88 Move 88 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . O X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , X X X X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . 1 . . . O . . O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . X O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Normal joseki doesn't apply here, because it's not an open corner. If we want to do anything with the lower left quadrant, pressing down is the only move that locally makes sense. If we get C5 now I think the result is good for White, so presumably the first thing Black will do is play there. I'm worried about a full scale attack launching on our lower middle stones, so a) that's why I think this is also urgent, as b) this also serves to help them out somewhat.
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Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Post by Jordus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm89 Move 89 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . O X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , X X X X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . O . . O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 . . . X O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was looking for points with this move.

other choices:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . O X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , X X X X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . O . . O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . X b a . . . . X O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I chose the move i did because I believe it gave black more points and makes white create bad aji when trying to defend it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . O . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . O X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , X X X X O . O X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . O . . O O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . X 2 . 1 . 3 . X O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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