135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:54 am

We're going to do even game, area scoring, 6.5 komi (or 7.5 if you prefer)

Similar to the game against Chew Terr, Fuego will be given 30 min / move on a Core i5.

Nigiri:

Enjoy the game!

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:15 pm

OK, congress is over and I'm ready to defend humanity. I say odd.

I'd prefer 7.5 komi since I've been playing with that all week.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:18 pm

Ok, I guessed correctly, I'd like to play white.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:07 am

As described in the last thread, there's no randomness or thinking to Fuego's fuseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d c . . . . . , . . . . . a b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

trigger a:

trigger b:

trigger c:

trigger d:

bayu · Post by **bayu** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:19 am

I'm looking forward to this game. Thank you both for setting this up.

Last time, Fuego calculated a winning percentage of less than 50% for black (because of the big komi). If it is not too much trouble, can you give us fuegos calculated winning percentage of an empty board with komi 7.5, 6.5 and 0.5?

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:35 am

I'll play A and then the distant high approach (F4). (on a mobile device, so no board)

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:20 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 19x19 diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The board.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:38 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 19x19 diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the book, surprisingly enough!

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:48 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 19x19 diagram $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmph, I was hoping that would take us out of book. I almost played on the side as my first move...

I approach this corner with the thought that after I take gote here, black either approaches my corner (in gote, allowing me to play on the left) or spends a move solidifying the left, which would allow me to approach the top left, getting a double-wing formation.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:06 pm

Well, we're definitely out of the book much sooner than last game, Black didn't have a followup to :b5:

prepared. It's all thinking now

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Value: 49.2%
Time: 20:02

Sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . 4 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It seems from playouts that black has a tendency to prefer moyo games. Also the game vs. Chew Terr had large moyos on both sides. :b7:

-

-

seem natural enough to me, :w10:

is a little odd, and :b11:

is very unusual. I'm guessing if it gets that far Fuego will refine its idea. I like the fact that :b7:

is a kind of loose pincer, but it seems to be that white can still double-kakari here.

Playout percentage:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a: 72%
b: 23%
c: 4%

It's funny to me that black thought so much about b here; if I were playing a human I would assume some kind of hamate.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:22 pm

Hm,

looks wrong at first but is hard to find a good answer to.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black played a large-scale move, it seems I should, also. Will fuego answer this approach?

Rejected moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . e . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X a . O . . . , . . . c . X . . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

in the order I rejected them:

a: (joseki move from a different pincer) Feels too early/too small scale.
b: Starts to look like a handicap game.
c: He owes a move. But it looks too small scale.
d: I'd like to make shape down here, but it also looks like I'd be playing in too small an area of the board.
e: Feels about the right scale, but if he plays on the left side and I approach the corner, then I might as well play b.
b: Hm, but he could play another loose, distant pincer.
e: Nah, if he pincers I can hop in the corner.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:25 pm

Daniel:

Figured I may as well reference a movie that WASN'T Terminator or Wargames.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:12 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Value: 49.2%
Time: 15:42
Fuego spent 94% of playouts on this move.
Sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 0 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think maybe Daniel made the right choice in forcing Fuego out of the book. The lack of joseki knowledge is certainly starting to show. On the other hand, like Daniel said it's hard to find a way to punish black's super-wide extensions. Is double kakari the way to go? Also white's bottom stone will need attention eventually, these side stones are limiting its potential somewhat.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:25 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . 0 . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Man, I'm super curious how well fuego thinks it is doing. I like the last two moves, very unusual but hard to call wrong.

I kinda want to deal with the lower left in sente, but this seems more important.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:20 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Value: 49.6% (A slight increase, but Fuego still feels a small bit behind, probably from komi)

Sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . 0 . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 9 . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . 8 . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 7 . X 0 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)