Go Back - Game 2

perceval · Post by **perceval** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:35 am

on the game:
for your entertainment i will provide a kyuish analysis of the situation.

Common sense will probably be hurt in the process .

Here are my kyusih ideas more or less in the order they come to mind:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm23 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . c . . . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O a c . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b . , O . . . . , . . . . f , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I have seen several time in this very forum the attachment at G16 that i really want to try here but here i think it would hurt the B group too much. Same thing for a reduction at H16 or G16
These days i am realizing that those groups can indeed be killed or at least be surrounded in a most awkward fashion. i am trying to take better care of them.
in addition if it where strong the sans sans invasion on top would be possible
so b (B10) is the idea to try to strengthen B group in sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm23 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . , . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

80% of the time i think at 7k level W would answer with :w24:

@ B9 ,so B would get stronger in sente but in fact i guess here W should ignore. and take sente himself

I would love to find a way for B to strenghten its right group in sente because then i would be more comfortable poking the upper side but i cant find one. i do not dare atacking the top wth that B group. Maybe its cowardly

The second thing that comes to my mind is the framework junction at E6. but thanks to B4 W group is not in danger and H3 is still available for W to reduce the bottom so i do not think i t buils on a grand scale

L 5 (e in first diag) is a way to developp the bottom but its slow, does nothing to W an maybe does not really prevent H3. iam fond of this kind of move those days
P10 looks like good shape but slow too.

So iam not sure what to suggest, playing on topagz suggestion for W doesnt appeal to me for B

I think as W i would be tempted to capp the right side at P10.

So to prevent that ill finally vote for p10.

This is my :b23:

move, please correct it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm23 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . 1 , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . , . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

nagano · Post by **nagano** » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:32 am

@topazg I'm not sure about your 22. If white does not reinforce 20, it is awkward enough that I think it should not have been played in the first place. Go back.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a , 1 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

'A' is possible as well, but I think 22 is better in this position. It has become very popular in this shape in the past few years.

perceval · Post by **perceval** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:35 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

this sounds natural and safe, tenuki seem dangerous, :w24:

@B13 would still gut us but i dont see a way to avoid that

Mr. Mormon · Post by **Mr. Mormon** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:45 am

Black looks overconcentrated.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:13 pm

@Mr. Mormon
I think it is inevitable for black not to get a conventionally "good" joseki result here compared to approaching a white corner on a much more open board. However, building a safe group here now saves doing it later, when it would presumably be even harder. It may be interesting to compare this result with nagano & topazg's speculation regarding the 3-3 invasion follow-up.

Anyway;
I feel nagano captured the local situation now elegantly.

Tryss · Post by **Tryss** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:16 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Logical (and simple) following.

White can always tenuki, but I don't see the point of 22 then

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:56 am

I like our reasoning for the last couple white moves - tenuki should come at natural breakpoints.

As black, we could have thought about a more moving-out oriented variation on :b21:

. I believe :b23:

C10 bump can also be played (my enemy's point...). I wouldn't tenuki now as black, anyway, though I'm not sure what the best move is to make shape... we seem kind of lumpy right now. Can we jump out ahead of white?

nagano · Post by **nagano** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:04 pm

Tryss wrote:
$$Bcm21
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Logical (and simple) following.

White can always tenuki, but I don't see the point of 22 then

Too slow. I think the best move here is the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This was the plan before :w22:

.

Some background on this shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 5 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Too submissive and overconcentrated for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 7 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 9 2 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 6 , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 8 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Again too submissive, and white even gets sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 8 0 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 7 2 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 6 , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

at

This is the usual sequence.

nagano · Post by **nagano** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:36 pm

Just reviewed this game between Gu Li and Iyama Yuta, which reminded me that :b21:

is often better placed here, as I think it is in this case; but I will leave it to others to decide weather to go back or not.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm21 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

nagano · Post by **nagano** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:11 pm

Anyone?

Mr. Mormon · Post by **Mr. Mormon** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:24 am

Go Back is turning out to be horrendously slow on L19 and practically dead on SL. But Go Back is on the upcoming Kaya Go Server's (http://kaya.gs) ideas page (http://kaya.uservoice.com), so go vote and/or make a comment!

oren · Post by **oren** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:12 am

Mr. Mormon wrote:Go Back is turning out to be horrendously slow on L19 and practically dead on SL. But Go Back is on the upcoming Kaya Go Server's (http://kaya.gs) ideas page (http://kaya.uservoice.com), so go vote and/or make a comment!

Maybe there's a reason for this? I don't think third time is going to be a charm here.

Mr. Mormon · Post by **Mr. Mormon** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:40 am

People don't usually go to forums and wikis to play Go. In fact, many if not most players don't go to either at all.

oren · Post by **oren** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:50 am

Mr. Mormon wrote:People don't usually go to forums and wikis to play Go. In fact, many if not most players don't go to either at all.

People also don't play games where anybody that wants to can take undos forever. The game will never finish.

Mr. Mormon · Post by **Mr. Mormon** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:21 am

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on whether the medium of play or the nature of the game has been a bigger factor. Why don't we find out?

Life In 19x19

Go Back - Game 2

Re: Go Back - Game 2

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